Worship of Jesus in NT

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darinhouston
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Worship of Jesus in NT

Post by darinhouston » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:49 pm

[moderator: moved this thread to its own -- moved from https://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=6197]
Homer wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 12:09 pm
Hi Darin,

You posted:

Homer wrote: ↑Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:05 am
So why did Jesus not rebuke them?

Matthew 14
28 Peter responded and said to Him, “Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water.” 29 And He said, “Come!” And Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water, and came toward Jesus. 30 But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and when he began to sink, he cried out, saying, “Lord, save me!” 31 Immediately Jesus reached out with His hand and took hold of him, and *said to him, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?” 32 When they got into the boat, the wind stopped. 33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are truly God’s Son!”
Well, quite obviously, because there was nothing wrong and everything right with giving him praise and honor and proclaiming him as the Son of God. There are many examples of forms of "worship" (if that's the word you prefer) of all sorts of men of renown and honor. That doesn't make them Yahweh.
They "worshipped" Him. I do not believe you can cite one instance (of some 60 in the New Testament) where the Greek proskuneo (worship) is used approvingly of any other than God the Father and God the Son. That is my point.
Well, the LXX does use proskuneo a number of times for other forms of adoration in the Old Testament. I believe I have also heard of extra-biblical examples giving a broader meaning to the term. I have read elsewhere that in Classical Greek, this was a very common term for bowing and showing reverence to those in authority. But, no one doubts Jesus' authority on earth or that adoration or even divine worship is due him. So, although I think there is a lexical response, I don't think it's necessary in this case. Even if worship is only due God, that doesn't mean that the principle of agency plus the heightened divinity as God's Son (with all regal authority implied in that culture) wouldn't be seen as effectively being given to God through His divine appointed agent or royal/divine son.

Here is one commentary discussing this with a couple of specific examples...

....

It has been further said that there are some instances in which Jesus is represented as receiving worship from the Jews while he was on earth. A more weak and preposterous idea cannot be imagined. They who urge this seem not to be aware of the latitude of meaning in which the Greek word proskuneo is employed. See, for example, Dan. ii. 46. Gen. xxiii. 7, 12.

The word, in the instances alleged, is in fact the one most commonly used to denote that respect and veneration which men are accustomed to render to their superiors. Had Christ permitted himself to be treated as an object of religious worship, and that in a public manner too, it would not have been overlooked by the scribes and pharisees. On this ground they would not have failed to condemn him as an enemy to the most fundamental principle of the law, the worship of the one God. Their total silence on this point proves that they did not consider the worship that he received as of the same kind as that due to God. The words leitourgeo, latreuo, sebomai, and proseuchomai, are never applied as expressive of the worship that was on any occasion given to Jesus; but universally to that which was given to the Father.

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darinhouston
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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by darinhouston » Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:59 pm

Homer,

Check out also Acts 10:25 - "proskuneo worship" given to Peter

"And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him."

10:25 ὡς δὲ ἐγένετο εἰσελθεῖν τὸν Πέτρον συναντήσας αὐτῷ ὁ Κορνήλιος πεσὼν ἐπὶ τοὺς πόδας προσεκύνησεν

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dwight92070
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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:41 am

darinhouston wrote:
Fri Feb 19, 2021 11:49 pm


Homer: They "worshipped" Him. I do not believe you can cite one instance (of some 60 in the New Testament) where the Greek proskuneo (worship) is used approvingly of any other than God the Father and God the Son. That is my point.

Dwight: Homer's point should not be taken lightly. He's talking about the New Testament, not the Septuagent, not extra-Biblical examples, not Classical Greek, etc. The New Testament - the only book where we get an accurate record of the life and teachings of Jesus. Since the topic is whether Jesus is God or not, I think it behooves us to focus on the only book that can accurately give us that information. All others are rabbit trails and distractions.
But, no one doubts Jesus' authority on earth or that adoration or even divine worship is due him.

Dwight: If you don't believe that Jesus is God, then your worship of Him is idolatry.

Even if worship is only due God, that doesn't mean that the principle of agency plus the heightened divinity as God's Son (with all regal authority implied in that culture) wouldn't be seen as effectively being given to God through His divine appointed agent or royal/divine son.

Dwight: So you're saying that when we worship Jesus, we are effectively not worshipping Him, but we are worshipping God through Him. The New Testament does not say this anywhere. The New Testament time after time shows us that worshipping Jesus IS worshipping God. Again, look at the 60 references that Homer mentioned.

Here is one commentary discussing this with a couple of specific examples...

....

It has been further said that there are some instances in which Jesus is represented as receiving worship from the Jews while he was on earth. A more weak and preposterous idea cannot be imagined.

Dwight: Only "some" instances? The New Testament is filled with "instances". "Jesus is represented as receiving worship?" No, He actually DID receive worship. "A more weak and preposterous idea cannot be imagined?" This is a lie - it actually is strong and accurate facts.


Had Christ permitted himself to be treated as an object of religious worship, and that in a public manner too, it would not have been overlooked by the scribes and pharisees. On this ground they would not have failed to condemn him as an enemy to the most fundamental principle of the law, the worship of the one God. Their total silence on this point proves that they did not consider the worship that he received as of the same kind as that due to God.

Dwight: It was NOT overlooked! The scribes and Pharisees strongly objected to Jesus being worshipped by His disciples and some children on His triumphal entry into Jerusalem. Jesus quoted the Old Testament - Out of the mouth of babes and infants, You have prepared praise for Yourself.
Many times the scribes and Pharisees wanted to kill Him because He was "making Himself equal with God" (John's testimony about Jesus in John 5:18). In Nazareth, they wanted to throw Him over a cliff, but "passing through their midst, He went His way." God protected Him from a premature death. Jesus was constantly "condemned as an enemy" for many reasons, not the least of which was His acting as if He was God. Remember they told Him "only God can forgive sins" when He forgave the paralytic on the stretcher? Whoever wrote that commentary was obviously biased. Which commentary were you quoting from?

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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by darinhouston » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:34 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:41 am
But, no one doubts Jesus' authority on earth or that adoration or even divine worship is due him.

Dwight: If you don't believe that Jesus is God, then your worship of Him is idolatry.
I disagree. There are forms of worship (and a number of greek words with various semantic ranges for the notion as we have discussed). If I were to worship him "as God" and he is not, then this is idolatry -- this is the ground of the Trinitarian. If they are right, no problem. If they are not, then it's clear pagan idolatry. Might God understand? Of course, but Jesus went OUT OF HIS WAY to be very careful to make sure that all glory was to be given to his father for all that he did and that all that he did was out of obedience to his father for his glory and not "theirs." I do the same. I adore and pay devotion to Jesus as appointed and "earned" Lord of all creation - something the apostles did who were given their authority by Christ. The fact that he was given this status by God is enough for him to deserve it. If I worship God, I try to keep the Father in mind as the object of my worship, even if I worship him by paying obeisance and obedience to His son, appointed heir who was given all authority and honor. So, it's not idolatry because his authority was given to him by God (the Father). In the end, Jesus will give it all to his father. So, when I give it to Jesus, I am giving it to the Father, ultimately.

This is hard for moderns, but if a king or pharaoh had a son and he gave the signet ring to him and sent him into the land, people would rightly bow down and pay honor to that prince - but, it was derivative, and the real object was the authority of the pharoah/king that was being worshipped. If someone explicitly were to say the prince was a part of a ruling "pair" and not recognize this as derivative, that person likely would be put to death (and likely the prince for encouraging or permitting it). So, this is shaky ground, I think.

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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by darinhouston » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:39 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:41 am
Dwight: So you're saying that when we worship Jesus, we are effectively not worshipping Him, but we are worshipping God through Him. The New Testament does not say this anywhere. The New Testament time after time shows us that worshipping Jesus IS worshipping God. Again, look at the 60 references that Homer mentioned.
see above, but none of the 60 references say that worshipping Jesus is worshipping God. The fact that the same word is used is not enough. That requires us to interpret that word. You say that is limited to worship of God. I showed at least one reference where in the New Testament a person other than Jesus or the Father are worshipped with that word (Cornelius worshipping Peter), and a number on the Old Testament (see below). But, still - we must interpret that word if you want to give it such a special meaning, and there is a method to doing so which you seem to reject (see below).

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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by darinhouston » Sat Feb 20, 2021 5:42 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 8:41 am
Dwight: Homer's point should not be taken lightly. He's talking about the New Testament, not the Septuagent, not extra-Biblical examples, not Classical Greek, etc. The New Testament - the only book where we get an accurate record of the life and teachings of Jesus. Since the topic is whether Jesus is God or not, I think it behooves us to focus on the only book that can accurately give us that information. All others are rabbit trails and distractions.
The Septuagint is not extra-biblical per se. It is the greek translation of the Old Testament and was the Scripture used by Jesus himself. To determine what a NT word meant at the time it was used, we look to it and other non-biblical texts and Classical Greek at the time to understand that semantic range. I'm not saying they have any specific authority, and I think the septuagint got a few things wrong, but this would be a biggie and would likely have been addressed by Jesus himself or the apostles if it was wrong. This is just simply how interpreting original languages works. Not rabbit trails and distractions.

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Homer
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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by Homer » Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:19 pm

Darin,

You wrote:
Check out also Acts 10:25 - "proskuneo worship" given to Peter

"And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him."

10:25 ὡς δὲ ἐγένετο εἰσελθεῖν τὸν Πέτρον συναντήσας αὐτῷ ὁ Κορνήλιος πεσὼν ἐπὶ τοὺς πόδας προσεκύνησεν
Top
I was well aware of this passage. It helps to make my point; in effect it is an example of apostolic rebuke of worship of any but God yet the disciples/apostles themselves, and those seeking healing, etc. in numerous places in the scripture worshipped (proskuneo in various forms) Jesus which He accepted without rebuke or any objection. Yet it was Jesus who said we are to worship (proskuneseis) and serve God alone.

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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by darinhouston » Sat Feb 20, 2021 11:50 pm

Homer wrote:
Sat Feb 20, 2021 7:19 pm
Darin,

You wrote:
Check out also Acts 10:25 - "proskuneo worship" given to Peter

"And as Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him, and fell down at his feet, and worshipped him."

10:25 ὡς δὲ ἐγένετο εἰσελθεῖν τὸν Πέτρον συναντήσας αὐτῷ ὁ Κορνήλιος πεσὼν ἐπὶ τοὺς πόδας προσεκύνησεν
Top
I was well aware of this passage. It helps to make my point; in effect it is an example of apostolic rebuke of worship of any but God yet the disciples/apostles themselves, and those seeking healing, etc. in numerous places in the scripture worshipped (proskuneo in various forms) Jesus which He accepted without rebuke or any objection. Yet it was Jesus who said we are to worship (proskuneseis) and serve God alone.
Peter's response was hardly the sort of rebuke you might imagine if the word means only what you suggest - an apostle would have said the same thing for any of the types of worship that the various greek words imply. It was a humble response - nonetheless, it hardly proves your point. There is ample evidence that the word is not limited in the vernacular of the day to proper worship of God alone.

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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by darinhouston » Sun Feb 21, 2021 11:26 am

As I've reflected further on this passage (Acts 10:25), it strikes me that Luke chose that word without it carrying in his mind the notion of appropriate worship to God alone. There is also nothing in that passage to suggest there was anything inherently out of the ordinary, culturally, with what Cornelius did. Yes, Peter refused to accept the adoration. But, that doesn't mean he considered it blasphemous, and nothing in the context suggests this. In my mind, I see it as perhaps a life-long catholic who attends a bible church and when meeting the pastor gives him some form of ceremonial bowing or courtesy which is unique to the culture and hierarchical reality in the RCC, but which the pastor of the bible church doesn't recognize as appropriate as he is just as much a part of the congregation as anyone else and owed no particular honor.

You clearly see it differently, but these lexical arguments just don't carry very far in my mind, particularly with as few examples as we see.

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Re: Worship of Jesus in NT

Post by Paidion » Sun Feb 21, 2021 5:23 pm

There is ONE GOD, and Jesus is not He. The one God is the Father. Jesus is the divine Son of the one God.

1Ti 2:5 (ESV) For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus

If Jesus were God, Paul would say either that there are two Gods, or else that the one God consists of both the Father and the Son.
But Paul does neither in 1 Ti 2:5. Rather he distinguishes between the one God (the Father) and the one mediator (the Son).
Paidion

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