The Trinity from Communications Science

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2995
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by Homer » Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:05 am

So why did Jesus not rebuke them?

Matthew 14
28 Peter responded and said to Him, “Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water.” 29 And He said, “Come!” And Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water, and came toward Jesus. 30 But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and when he began to sink, he cried out, saying, “Lord, save me!” 31 Immediately Jesus reached out with His hand and took hold of him, and *said to him, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?” 32 When they got into the boat, the wind stopped. 33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are truly God’s Son!”

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:52 pm

Hebrews 1:8 "But of the Son, He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever ...'"

How could it be more plain? If the Father calls the Son "God", then I think we are to understand, that Jesus is God, and that we too, can call him God.

John 1:1 The Word (which John tells us in verse 14 became flesh) was God. In verse 18, John says " ... the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John tells us plainly here that Jesus is God - twice.

The Bible is very clear that there is only One who should receive worship - God. The angel in Revelation 22 confirms that. Peter in Acts 10:25 confirms that. Jesus Himself confirms that by quoting Deuteronomy in Matthew 4:10 - and yet He Himself received worship and did not rebuke those who worshipped Him. There is only one explanation - Jesus is God. Otherwise the Bible is mistaken - there are really 2 who can receive worship. Matthew 2:11 - Jesus was worshipped as a baby; Matthew 28:9,17 HIs disciples worshipped Him; John 9:38 - the man whose eyes were opened worshipped Him. The gospels are filled with people who fell down before Jesus and worshipped Him. He rebuked none of them, even though the Pharisees asked Him to when He came into Jerusalem riding on a donkey. He welcomed and received praise and worship, because He was God in the flesh - the Word became flesh. Revelations 4:6-14 The four living creatures, the twenty-four elders, and myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands of angels fell down before the Lamb and said, "To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever." Jesus, the Lamb, receives equal worship with the Father in heaven. There is no question - Jesus is God. There never was 2 to worship - the Jews had this drilled into them - only 1- that is God. Jesus said, "I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me." Obviously, we can't comprehend it - who can fully understand the Godhead? But we can believe it!

God bless you,

Dwight

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by darinhouston » Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:30 pm

Homer wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:05 am
So why did Jesus not rebuke them?

Matthew 14
28 Peter responded and said to Him, “Lord, if it is You, command me to come to You on the water.” 29 And He said, “Come!” And Peter got out of the boat and walked on the water, and came toward Jesus. 30 But seeing the wind, he became frightened, and when he began to sink, he cried out, saying, “Lord, save me!” 31 Immediately Jesus reached out with His hand and took hold of him, and *said to him, “You of little faith, why did you doubt?” 32 When they got into the boat, the wind stopped. 33 And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, “You are truly God’s Son!”
Well, quite obviously, because there was nothing wrong and everything right with giving him praise and honor and proclaiming him as the Son of God. There are many examples of forms of "worship" (if that's the word you prefer) of all sorts of men of renown and honor. That doesn't make them Yahweh.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by darinhouston » Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:33 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:52 pm
Hebrews 1:8 "But of the Son, He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever ...'"

How could it be more plain? If the Father calls the Son "God", then I think we are to understand, that Jesus is God, and that we too, can call him God.
Well, because "theos" here doesn't imply Yahweh - there are numerous uses of theos w/r/t men in scripture. This is widely understood, even among Trinitarians.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by darinhouston » Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:41 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:52 pm
John 1:1 The Word (which John tells us in verse 14 became flesh) was God. In verse 18, John says " ... the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

John tells us plainly here that Jesus is God - twice.
Paidion has addressed this verse well on other topics at this forum in regards to some of the translations issues here - but even if there was a pre-incarnate "Logos" that could be considered "God" or "of God stuff" or "aligned with God" or "the ideas of God" or other of the various translation contexts of this very peculiar text (as with Proverbs Sophia/"Wisdom"), that does not equate to God being equated with the self-same person as was later "enfleshed" by the birth of the man, Jesus. That does not mean that the man Jesus was in fact Yahweh. It doesn't even mean that Jesus is the same as the Logos, only that the "word/plan/etc" was made real or entered our world in the form of the man, Jesus. Of course, in the context of the gnostic ideas John was likely speaking into (and against) with this preamble, this takes on a very different context than trying to say anything particular about Jesus' divinity.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by darinhouston » Fri Feb 12, 2021 5:48 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 1:52 pm
Obviously, we can't comprehend it - who can fully understand the Godhead? But we can believe it!
This is the most problematic thing I hear Christians say. We infer something we can't understand and say we must believe it anyway. But, I don't think you can really assent to or believe in something you can't comprehend and prove at at least a basic level. If there is a clear and straightforward/unambiguous teaching and it just doesn't seem to us to be possible, that's something we can and must believe even without fully understanding. For example, I don't know how anything could have existed prior to Creation, or how the Universe was Created or how Jesus could have been raised from the dead or to have walked on water. It is contrary to everything I think and believe otherwise, but I believe it anyway. But, a construct of the church formed out of passages that are against the broader and more clear fundamental tenet of monotheism can be pondered on and considered as possible theories, but should not be held out as dogmatic requirements fundamental to the faith.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5452
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by Paidion » Fri Feb 12, 2021 10:58 pm

Dwight wrote:Hebrews 1:8 "But of the Son, He says, 'Your throne, O God, is forever and ever ...'"

How could it be more plain? If the Father calls the Son "God", then I think we are to understand, that Jesus is God, and that we too, can call him God.
It is not at all plain. In my opinion, it appears to be a mistranslation.
The sentence in Greek begins: 'ο θρονος σου 'ο θεος...
The first two words are in the nominative case, and the third word is in the genitive case. They mean "the throne of you".
The next two words are also in the nominative case. So this should be translated "Your throne is God" or "God is your throne."

If God were being addressed, then the word for God would be in the vocative case, as in Matthew 27:46 where Jesus cries out
"My God, my God why have you forsaken me. In this passage, the Greek word for "God" is in the vocative case:
"θεε μου θεε μου" (God of me, God of me) why have you forsaken me?

But since the word for "God" in Hebrews 1:8 is in the nominative case both for "God" and "throne", should it not be translated
"But of the Son, He says, 'Your throne is God' (or 'God is your throne')"?

So it is not at all clear that in Hebrews 1:8, He is addressing the Son as "God", even though so many translations have it that way.

"
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by dwight92070 » Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:37 pm

So I'm sure you have an elaborate explanation for Revelation 4 and 5, showing that just because of all of heaven is worshipping the Lamb equally with their worship of the Father, this does not mean that Jesus is God, right?

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 3112
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by darinhouston » Sat Feb 13, 2021 12:03 pm

dwight92070 wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:37 pm
So I'm sure you have an elaborate explanation for Revelation 4 and 5, showing that just because of all of heaven is worshipping the Lamb equally with their worship of the Father, this does not mean that Jesus is God, right?
To be honest, I believe several passages in Revelation are the most difficult areas (on the surface at least) for the unitarian position. But, then again, many aspects of Revelation are similarly difficult considering its imagery and the impressionistic aspects of so many of the scenes. It also has some of the most suspect canonicity and between those two issues, it's not a great place to establish a major doctrine such as the identify and nature of God, Himself. That notwithstanding, one thing is pretty striking about the Lamb - it would be hard to imagine how it could further distinguish the Lamb from God.

Consider this article...
https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/artic ... is-not-god

Also, the Biblical Unitarian podcast has a fairly lengthy series on Revelation Christology that I am currently working through. It is very good, though I'm not sure I agree with some of it so far. Most of it is pretty good, though, and is a very interesting walk through Revelation even if you disagree with the Christological points made.

User avatar
dwight92070
Posts: 1550
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Feb 13, 2021 1:46 pm

Darin said:
"Well, quite obviously, because there was nothing wrong and everything right with giving him praise and honor and proclaiming him as the Son of God. There are many examples of forms of "worship" (if that's the word you prefer) of all sorts of men of renown and honor. That doesn't make them Yahweh.
I think the message of the Bible is quite clear. The angel of Revelation 22 made it clear: We don't worship angels and we don't worship men. The only One we worship is God. If Jesus is not God, then He should not be worshipped. You just said that there was "nothing wrong and everything right with giving (Jesus) praise and honor and proclaiming Him as the Son of God." But if Jesus, the Son of God, is not also God, then there is nothing right and everything wrong with worshipping Him.

By the way, it's interesting that, in your post, you substituted the actual words of Matthew 14:33 saying that they "worshipped HIm" to "giving him praise and honor". It seems that you are reluctant to allow the passage to say what it actually says - that they worshipped Jesus, and said, "You are certainly God's Son!"

Peter told Cornelius, who was bowing down to him, "Stand up; I too am just a man." Acts 25-26 Yes, I prefer the word "worship", because that's the word the Bible uses. Cornelius "fell at Peter's feet and worshipped him."

You are right. Just because someone worships or praises or bows down to a specific man, who may be a man of renown and honor, that does not make the man God. Jesus is not God, because people worshipped Him. The people worshipped Him because He was God. Only God can command the wind and the sea, and they obey Him. Only God can open the eyes of the blind, cleanse the lepers, heal the sick and the lame, cast out demons, and raise the dead. Jesus is God because He not only did the works of God, but He fulfilled the prophecies of God, and the word of God testifies to Him being God. Isaiah 9:6-7; John 1:1,14; John 5:18; John 10:33; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 2:9

There is no Savior other than God, according to Isaiah 43:3 and 11. Paul, in Titus 1:3 affirms that God is our Savior. But Paul also says in Titus 1:4 that Christ Jesus is our Savior. So now we have both God AND Christ Jesus being our Savior. How is that possible, since there is only one Savior? Unless, of course, Jesus is God.

Paul says again that God is our Savior in Titus 2:10. But in Titus 2:13, he says that he is looking for the appearing of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus. So, not only is Christ Jesus our Savior, but He is also our great God. But in Isaiah 44:6 and 8, God says there is no God besides Him. So is He God or is Christ Jesus God? There is only one God. Obviously, Jesus and the Father are both God.

Again, in Titus 3:4, Paul says that God is our Savior and in Titus 3:6 - Jesus Christ is our Savior. Paul was very much a Jew - a Hebrew of Hebrews. He knew from the Old Testament that there is Only One God, Only One Savior, Only One Lord. Yet he testifies over and over that Jesus is that God, that Savior, and that Lord.

God said in Isaiah 44:6: "I am the first and I am the last." Yet John tells us that Jesus made that same claim in Revelation 1:17 and 2:8 and 22:13. So which is it? Is God the Father the first and the last or is Jesus the first and the last? I think we know the answer. Jesus is God. He said, "I and the Father are One." John 10:30 He told Philip, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." John 14:9

I don't know how much more "clear, straightforward, and unambiguous" the teaching of scripture can be. It is not, therefore, without merit to say that we cannot fully understand the Trinity or God. There is more than enough evidence, I believe, for understanding that Jesus is God. I don't believe the problem is that people can't see it. I believe the problem is that they don't want to see it. It doesn't fit into their doctrinal box, so they try to explain away all the above scriptures and more. The more we try to explain away scripture, the further from the truth we get.

However, I agree with Steve, concerning the Trinity, that those who don't accept it, are not therefore, necessarily unsaved.

God bless you,

Dwight

Post Reply

Return to “The Trinity”