The Trinity from Communications Science

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dwight92070
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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Feb 09, 2021 5:14 am

Paidon,
Okay, I see your point on that and will ponder that more. Another question, though, if the scriptures in Luke that you quoted use the definite article "the" in front of "Holy Spirit" in some places but not in other places, then wouldn't both be acceptable? What about other New Testament books? Are both used in other books? You seem to be saying that when the article is used, this supports the Trinitarian view. When the article is not used, this supports the non-Trinitarian view. But if both are used in scripture, is the scripture both supporting the view and not supporting it? That would seem to cancel out both views, which may mean that the presence of the article or the absence of it, has nothing to do with the argument on either side.

Dwight

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Paidion
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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by Paidion » Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:55 am

Thank you for your thoughts, Dwight.

Actually, I have done some thinking on that very matter.

If there is a Trinity of 3 divine Persons, one of whom is The Holy Spirit, then it would seem sensible to use the article "the" in all cases.
In an earthly example, when referring to the words of a king, one would always say "the king said..." and never just "King said...".
So likewise, if the holy spirit of God is a person, you wouldn't say "Holy Spirit said..."

However, if the holy spirit is not an individual Person, but simply the spirit of God, that is the thinking and acting mind of God, you might well say, "These truths came from God's spirit, or in Greek the order of the words would be, "came from spirit of God".
Last edited by Paidion on Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by darinhouston » Wed Feb 10, 2021 5:37 pm

I find it interesting that there is no scriptural or exra-biblical (and orthodox) reference (of which I am aware) speaking of the flesh of God or God's Flesh or even God's humanity. There are phrases such as "in the spirit" or "in the flesh" (presumably assuming that the referent had both) but each are referring to a fully human person. Do we even have a reference like that in regards to Jesus?

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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by Paidion » Wed Feb 10, 2021 6:41 pm

True. You wouldn't read about ""God's flesh" or "God's humanity" because God has neither. For God IS spirit (John 4:24).

Jesus is not God; He is the Son of God, and is therefore divine on that basis. The son of a human being is human like his father. The Son of God is divine like HIS Father. But Jesus was born as a human being, the son of Mary. So he was truly human. Clearly he was human since he was born from a human mother. And clearly He was also divine, since He was begotten before all ages by a divine Father (Early Christians called the begetting of the Son, "the first of God's acts").

Some people refer to Jesus as the "God-man".
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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by StevenD » Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:52 am

There are phrases such as "in the spirit" or "in the flesh" (presumably assuming that the referent had both) but each are referring to a fully human person. Do we even have a reference like that in regards to Jesus?
1 Timothy 3:16 comes to mind:

..."he [or 'God'] was manifest in [the] flesh, justified in [the] spirit"...

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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by Paidion » Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:22 pm

1 Timothy 3:16 comes to mind:

..."he [or 'God'] was manifest in [the] flesh, justified in [the] spirit"...
Thank you for that quote, Steven.

I don't know why translators add the article "the" before "flesh" and "spirit", and most boldly do it without placing it between braces.
It just isn't there in the Greek. What's the problem with "manifest in flesh" and "justified in spirit"?

Also, the first word in the sentence is the Greek word "ος". It is thought to be a primary word that means "which" or "who". The only way you can get "God" out of the word is to presume that the Paul actually ,meant "θεος" ("theos" Greek for "God") but that he somehow forgot to write the first two letters. To my mind, that is highly improbable, if not impossible.
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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by dwight92070 » Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:48 pm

If Jesus is not God, then why did He continually receive worship, without rebuking those worshipping Him, as did the angel in Revelation 22:8-9? Deuteronomy 6:13; Matthew 4:10; Hebrews 1:6

If the Holy Spirit is not separate from the Father, then why did Jesus say that the Father would give you ANOTHER Helper - that is someone other than Jesus and other than the Father. He even gives Him a name - the Helper. Jesus said that the Father would send the Helper in My name, that is Jesus' name. Jesus speaks of the Holy Spirit as a 3rd person. If the Father and the Helper are one person, then is the Father sending Himself or giving Himself? Not according to Jesus. Even Jesus does not talk in those terms, because that would be very confusing. (not that the Trinity itself is totally understood, but I don't believe Jesus' words bring confusion) In fact Jesus, who is called "the only begotten God" has explained Him, that is, the Father. John 1:18

So Jesus' words explain the Father and the Holy Spirit and even Himself - that is, they help us understand them. Jesus' words clarify the Godhead, they don't make it more confusing.

God bless you,

Dwight

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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by Paidion » Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:05 pm

If Jesus is not God, then why did He continually receive worship, without rebuking those worshipping Him, as did the angel in Revelation 22:8-9? Deuteronomy 6:13; Matthew 4:10; Hebrews 1:6
Let's consider these verses and see whether they indicate the worship of Jesus:

Revelation 22: 8,9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."


This passage has nothing to do with Jesus. John was going to worship the angel that showed those things to him, and the angel replied,"You must not do that... Worship God." The angel did not say, "Worship Jesus."

Deuteronomy 6:13
It is Yahweh your God you shall fear. Him you shall serve and by his name you shall swear.


God's name is "Yahweh" not "Jesus". Here the command is to serve Yahweh. This verse has nothing to do with whether or not one should worship Jesus.

Matthew 4:8-10
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "’You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’"


Jesus answers the devil plainly that no one is to be worshipped except the Lord God. He doesn't remotely suggest that he himself is to be worshipped.

Hebrews 1:5,6
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"? And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God’s angels worship him."


This is the only verse that indicates that anyone (in this case God's angels) are to worship Jesus when he is born. But that doesn't prove that Jesus is God. Rather the verse clearly indicates that Jesus is the son of God. God said, ""You are my Son, today I have begotten you." It is because he is the SON of God, that the angels are to worship him.
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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by Paidion » Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:10 pm

I will address your comments about God's holy spirit in a later post.
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Re: The Trinity from Communications Science

Post by darinhouston » Thu Feb 11, 2021 11:14 pm

Paidion wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:05 pm
If Jesus is not God, then why did He continually receive worship, without rebuking those worshipping Him, as did the angel in Revelation 22:8-9? Deuteronomy 6:13; Matthew 4:10; Hebrews 1:6
Let's consider these verses and see whether they indicate the worship of Jesus:

Revelation 22: 8,9
I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed them to me, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God."


This passage has nothing to do with Jesus. John was going to worship the angel that showed those things to him, and the angel replied,"You must not do that... Worship God." The angel did not say, "Worship Jesus."

Deuteronomy 6:13
It is Yahweh your God you shall fear. Him you shall serve and by his name you shall swear.


God's name is "Yahweh" not "Jesus". Here the command is to serve Yahweh. This verse has nothing to do with whether or not one should worship Jesus.

Matthew 4:8-10
Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Be gone, Satan! For it is written, "’You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’"


Jesus answers the devil plainly that no one is to be worshipped except the Lord God. He doesn't remotely suggest that he himself is to be worshipped.

Hebrews 1:5,6
For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"? And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God’s angels worship him."


This is the only verse that indicates that anyone (in this case God's angels) are to worship Jesus when he is born. But that doesn't prove that Jesus is God. Rather the verse clearly indicates that Jesus is the son of God. God said, ""You are my Son, today I have begotten you." It is because he is the SON of God, that the angels are to worship him.
I may respond further on this, but meanwhile I think Dwight's point was not that these verses show worship to Jesus but that, in contrast, the angel didn't receive worship. Here's a decent discussion... https://www.biblicalunitarian.com/video ... sus-christ

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