The Holy Spirit - a person??

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Paidion
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by Paidion » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:30 pm

Brother Alan, you wrote: So, to give but one example, "The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things...
There is no "He" in that verse. The Greek word so translated is "εκεινος" which means "that one."
So He says, "That one will teach you all things." So this does not indicate a different divine Person. "That one" is the very Persons of the Father and of the Son, which They extend into the hearts and minds of believers. Being the extended Persons of the Father and the Son, "that one" (the Holy Spirit) is able to teach.
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Paidion
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by Paidion » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:43 pm

Darin, you wrote: Homer, I believe those who would deny the completely separate personality of the spirit would be purely non-Trinitarian -- perhaps binitarian, but probably Unitarian.
I believe you are right, Darin.
I deny that Spirit as a separate Person. So of course, I am not a Trinitarian. Nor am I a Binitarian, for Binitarians, like Trinitarians believe in a compound God, only consisting of Two Persons instead of Three.

I am Unitarian—Jesus Himself was, having addressed His Father as "the only true God."

However unlike modern Unitarians, I do believe the Son of God is divine. For He is the ONLY begotten God (John 1:18 in the earliest manuscripts)
He is "God", not in the sense that He is the Father, nor because He is part of a compound God, but because He was begotten by God as the first of God's acts, just as you are "man" because you were begotten by man.
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BrotherAlan
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by BrotherAlan » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:50 pm

Thanks, Paidion, for that information and commentary.

Before looking more at your (Paidion's) interpretation of this verse (as well as looking at other verses), are we in agreement that the Holy Spirit IS a person (it's simply a question of whether or not He is distinct from the Father and the Son)? Or is there anything more we need to look at or consider with respect to the question of His being a person?

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by BrotherAlan » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:52 pm

Ah, I posted my last comment while Paidion was posting his last comment (so my last comment is in ref to Paidion's SECOND to last comment....unless if he's posting another one right now! ;))

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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darinhouston
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by darinhouston » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:03 pm

Paidion wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:43 pm
He is "God", not in the sense that He is the Father, nor because He is part of a compound God, but because He was begotten by God as the first of God's acts, just as you are "man" because you were begotten by man.
Sounds like you are saying that Jesus is “divine” much like a prince might be “royal.”

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darinhouston
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by darinhouston » Mon Jun 17, 2019 9:56 pm

BrotherAlan wrote:
Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:50 pm
Thanks, Paidion, for that information and commentary.

Before looking more at your (Paidion's) interpretation of this verse (as well as looking at other verses), are we in agreement that the Holy Spirit IS a person (it's simply a question of whether or not He is distinct from the Father and the Son)? Or is there anything more we need to look at or consider with respect to the question of His being a person?

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
If the HS is not “distinct” from both of them, then I don’t see how one could call it a person. Person implies distinctness, I would think. Otherwise, it’s an aspect of another. Maybe a shared aspect, but not quite a “person” in any meaningful way.

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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by BrotherAlan » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:24 am

Hmmm, Darin, I guess I might be a little confused on what your (and Paidion's?) assertion is with regard to the Holy Spirit. So, let's back-track a bit...

First, are we in agreement that, whatever and whoever the Holy Spirit is, that He has a mind?
Secondly, are we in agreement that, whatever and whoever the Holy Spirit is, that He has a will?
Lastly, are we in agreement that any "thing" that has a mind and a will is a "person"? (That is, are we in agreement that, for our purposes here, a working definition for "person"-- perhaps we need to start here, with the definition of "person"!-- is an "individual with a mind and a will"?)

And, so, if we are in agreement with those points (are we?), then can we not simply assert that the Holy Spirit is a "person" (He/It fits the definition of "person")?

If so, the NEXT question is...WHO is this Person? Is He the same as the Father? Is He the same as the Son? Or is He a distinct person from both?

Is there something missing/lacking in this line of reasoning/questioning I have laid down here?

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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darinhouston
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by darinhouston » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:47 am

I don’t think we yet agree with these propositions. I see a lot of grammatical presuppositions and tend to see aspects of personification. We can’t ignore what isn’t said and how the references to the Spirit differ from other persons in forming our initial proposition. It is relevant to the fundamental inquiry. Not just a secondary consideration. We have to balance the way persons and God and the Father and Spirit are used in scripture even at the outset.

The following is a fairly thorough treatment of the subject if you are interested. Part 2 deals specifically with the personhood question.

https://restitutio.org/2015/11/05/trans ... ly-spirit/
https://restitutio.org/2016/07/30/trans ... -spirit-2/

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Paidion
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by Paidion » Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:52 am

Darin, you wrote:Sounds like you are saying that Jesus is “divine” much like a prince might be “royal.”
No. More like a man being human. A man is human in virtue of the fact that his human father begat him.
Jesus is divine in virtue of the fact that His divine Father begat Him. The Son of God was the ONLY begotten Son of God—begotten as the first of God's acts.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Paidion
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by Paidion » Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:05 pm

Hi Brother Alan, you wrote:Before looking more at your (Paidion's) interpretation of this verse (as well as looking at other verses), are we in agreement that the Holy Spirit IS a person (it's simply a question of whether or not He is distinct from the Father and the Son)? Or is there anything more we need to look at or consider with respect to the question of His being a person?
No, the Holy Spirit is not A person, but rather THE persons of the Father and the Son, extended into the hearts and minds of God's children. The Spirit is not distinct from the Father and the Son in the sense of being a different person from Them. If the Spirit were a "third person" of a compound God (consisting of 3 persons) one would expect that at least one prayer, recorded in the New Testament would have been addressed to the Holy Spirit. But there is none.

Also, when we encounter the word "God" with the article ("the God") in the New Testament without any modifiers other than the article, it always refers to the Father alone. That combination ("the God") occurs hundreds of times in the NT, but not once does it refer to "the Trinity."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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