The Holy Spirit - a person??

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21centpilgrim
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The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by 21centpilgrim » Sun Jun 16, 2019 10:42 am

if you are a person you have a name- so what is the Holy Spirit's name? as far as I can tell the Holy Spirit does not have a name
We have Yahweh, we have Jesus and then ....?

NT greetings- if the Trinity is true, then you would expect a common greeting from God the Father, the Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.
Yet that is not the case at all.
'from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ'- no Holy Spirit in the greetings is a disturbing silence when looking at the case for the Trinity. One God in three persons and yet this third person is left out of the greetings - the Holy Spirit never sends greetings

The Holy Spirit is left out of the visions of heaven

Eternal life is in knowing the only true God, and in knowing Jesus Christ (not the only true God by Jesus' own very definition) and yet if there is a third person in one being of God then why this silence?
wouldn't eternal life be in knowing all 3?

Matt 11:27
“All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.

So apparently if the Holy Spirit is a person, the that person does not know the Father because Jesus plainly says that no one but the Son knows the Father.
This greatly undermines this eternal dance of the 3 persons concept

continuing with this

Mark 13:32“But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

Again, if the Holy Spirit is a person that the Father and Son have been enjoying eternal fellowship and love with, then the conspicuous absence? and in that place we have the 'angels in heaven'

"I and the Father are one.” John 10:30 perfect opportunity for the revelation of the trinity and yet a huge absence once again

These are just some of the reasons that support the non-personality/personhood of the Holy Spirit
this if far more robust to me than the case for the person of the Holy Spirit
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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Paidion
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by Paidion » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:33 pm

Interesting points, 21¢!

Another point. Although today, there are hymns and prayers addressed to the Holy Spirit, (e.g. "Come Holy Spirit, I need thee; come sweet Spirit, I pray") there is not a single prayer found in the New Testament that addresses the Holy Spirit.

As I see it the Spirit is neither a third divine Person, nor merely the power of God. Yet the Spirit is personal—the very Persons of the Father and the Son extended throughout the universe, but living especially in the hearts and minds of the faithful.

"If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." (John 14:23 ESV)

The Father and the Son dwell in Heaven. So how do they come to us and make their dwelling with us? By means of Their Spirit.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by Homer » Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:35 pm

Paidion,

You see the Spirit as two persons, the Spirits of the Father and the Son. If "I and the Father are One", could they share in one Spirit rather than two?

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Paidion
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by Paidion » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:39 pm

I don't see why They couldn't. Jesus said, "The Father and I are one." (John 10:30)
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by Homer » Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:20 pm

Paidion,

If the Spirit of the Father and Spirit of the Son can be one person, that would appear to be very close to trinitarianism, i.e. no significant difference.

BrotherAlan
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by BrotherAlan » Sun Jun 16, 2019 11:48 pm

Hi, y'all--
Since today is for us Catholics a special feastday in honor of the Trinity ("Trinity Sunday"), I thought I'd give a quick response today (btw, happy Fathers' day to alln fathers! The feast of Trinity Sunday actually ties in well with Fathers' day, as this feast is for us Trinitarians a reminder that all fatherhood comes from God the Father, as He generates a true Son in His very same Divine nature, AND then, by incorporating US into His Son by grace, we, having a share in the Divine nature through God's Son, ALSO become sons of God! "Sons in the son"...so we honor today our earthly fathers and father-figures and spiritual fathers, especially good priests, and, above all, "Our Heavenly Dad", God the Father! Happy Father's Day to HIM, above all!)

Anyways, that was a parenthetical digression brought on by enthusiasm for the Trinity feastday coinciding with Father's Day this year...to address the question at hand: ok, lots of good questions here from Paidion and 21centpilgrim as to why the Scriptures DON'T say certain things about the Holy Spirit that one, perhaps, would expect if the Holy Spirit is indeed a person; and good points from Homer, too (about the Spirit of the Father and Son being one person). However, without, now, looking at all that, I would just throw this out: if the Holy Spirit is NOT a person, then why do we see the Holy Spirit having a mind and will of His own? Many examples could be given to show He has a mind and will, but, to give just one very interesting example: the Holy Spirit forbids Paul from preaching the word in Asia (Acts 16:6). So, it's clear that the Holy Spirit has a will (and, thus, a mind-- for, you can't have a will without a mind; and, of course, there are other Scriptures which explicitly speak of the Spirit's mind, eg., "For the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God." (1 Cor. 2:10)). So, yea, I guess that's really "it": if the Spirit is a "thing" with a mind and a will-- and I can't see how we can deny this based on the Scriptures-- then isn't He a "person"? Isn't that what we mean by "person": an individual with a mind and a will?

What say you all?

God bless...

In Christ,
BrotherAlan

P. S.
Also, Christ calls the Holy Spirit "the Consoler/Counselor/Paraclete/Advocate"... All terms which apply to PERSONS, no?
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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darinhouston
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by darinhouston » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:55 am

BrotherAlan, if the Father "is" spirit, then it's at least possible that the Holy Spirit is merely a reference to the Father as He interacts with our universe. In that view, those references to the mental capacities, will, etc. of the Spirit are merely a reference back to the same Father who is understood by Unitarians to be "God" and not a separate person.

Homer, I believe those who would deny the completely separate personality of the spirit would be purely non-Trinitarian -- perhaps binitarian, but probably Unitarian.

The notion that the Spirit is something God "is" and that it is something that Jesus "has/had" and is that which anointed Jesus and made Him the Christ through His submsision and obedience to it is in the realm of "Spirit Christology" (to be contrasted in many cases, but not all, with "Logos Christology."). Some would say that the errors in the trinity began with pagan influences dominating streams of what is later referred to as "Logos Christology" and that the early church had more of a "Spirit Christology."

I believe there is already a thread on Spirit Christology. Let's discuss that, here... https://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=6002

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darinhouston
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by darinhouston » Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:17 am

Where is the Holy Spirit’s throne mentioned in Scripture?

BrotherAlan
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by BrotherAlan » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:19 pm

Hi Darin and all,
Thanks for the reply, Darin.

It seems to me, though, that there's a difficulty in sayingn that the Holy Spirit is, essentially, the same person as the Father (if one agrees that the Spirit is a person): how would we deal with the fact that Scripture sure seems to treat the Father and Spirit (and Son) as distinct persons. So, to give but one example, "The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." This verse sure seems to regard the Father, Son, and Spirit as being all distinct (for the Spirit is sent by the Father, indicating distinction between Father and Spirit; and Spirit brings to remembrance all that Christ taught, indicating distinction between Spirit and Christ). Other verses from Scripture can be given indicating the same thing. So, if the Spirit and the Father are the same person, how would we deal with these verses?

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

BrotherAlan
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Re: The Holy Spirit - a person??

Post by BrotherAlan » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:36 pm

Also, just one other thing... While there have been a number of good questions as to why certain things about the Holy Spirit are NOT revealed in Scripture (things that one might ordinarily expect if the Holy Spirit is a Divine Person), and those questions, at some point, might be useful to address and answer, I submit that the FIRST thing we need to do is to discover what the Scriptures DO reveal about the Spirit, and then go from there.

So, for example, in addition to the questions about Scripture passages that I already asked (with respect to the question of the Spirit's personhood and distinction from the Father and Son), we can take note that Scripture says things like, "The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God." (1 Cor. 2:10) And, "Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit?" (1 Cor. 6:19). If we really think about these verses carefully, there actually "biggies". The first verse, 1 Cor. 2:10, sure seems to imply that the Holy Spirit is God-- for, how could anything/anyone other than God be able to "search ALL things, EVEN the deep things of GOD"? I can't see how a creature, a being who is not God, would be capable of doing that. And, isn't it true to say that Temples are for God alone? So, if our bodies are the Temples of the Holy Spirit, then isn't that implying that the Holy Spirit is God?

So, these sorts of things-- these positive ASSERTIONS made by Scripture about the Holy Spirit-- need to be addressed and dealt with before considering what the Scriptures DON'T say about the Spirit.

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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