Re: Trinities podcast
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:21 pm
Seballius, thanks for that -- I'll review
Hosted by Steve Gregg
https://theos.org:443/forum/
Smart man - I think he was on to something.Seballius wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:06 pmWalter Martin had a different view. I believe his frequent debates with JWs pushed him to this stance.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JzldbHs4I-w
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Thank you, Darin. I had intended to present the same argument in reply to the objection that I was sure Brother Alan would make.Hi Darin, you wrote:1. Trinitarians argue that this verse states that Jesus said he was the “I am” (i.e., the Yahweh of the Old Testament), so he must be God. That argument is not correct. Saying “I am” does not make a person God. The man born blind that Jesus healed was not claiming to be God, and he said “I am the man,” and the Greek reads exactly like Jesus’ statement, i.e., “I am.” The fact that the exact same phrase is translated two different ways, one as “I am” and the other as “I am the man,” is one reason it is so hard for the average Christian to get the truth from just reading the Bible as it has been translated into English. Most Bible translators are Trinitarian, and their bias appears in various places in their translation, this being a common one. Paul also used the same phrase of himself when he said that he wished all men were as “I am” (Acts 26:29). Thus, we conclude that saying “I am” did not make Paul, the man born blind or Christ into God. C. K. Barrett writes:
Ego eimi [“I am”] does not identify Jesus with God, but it does draw attention to him in the strongest possible terms. “I am the one—the one you must look at, and listen to, if you would know God.” [1]
2. The phrase “I am” occurs many other times in the New Testament, and is often translated as “I am he” or some equivalent (“I am he”—Mark 13:6; Luke 21:8; John 13:19; 18:5, 6 and 8. “It is I”—Matt. 14:27; Mark 6:50; John 6:20. “I am the one I claim to be”—John 8:24 and 28.). It is obvious that these translations are quite correct, and it is interesting that the phrase is translated as “I am” only in John 8:58. If the phrase in John 8:58 were translated “I am he” or “I am the one,” like all the others, it would be easier to see that Christ was speaking of himself as the Messiah of God (as indeed he was), spoken of throughout the Old Testament.
I guess I don't find this phrase particularly compelling to be quite the same thing as saying he was both Tomas's Lord and also "the" one true God, Yahweh, the maker and sustainer of all things, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the Great I Am. Though I recognize that your concept of divinity described above also doesn't go quite that far, either, and is consistent with a good number of non-Trinitarians who would acknowledge divinity in a sense but still deny that Jesus is an eternal member of the godhead (i.e., God the Son in the same manner as God the Father).Paidion wrote: ↑Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:01 pmAlso, when Thomas addressed the risen Christ as "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28), Jesus didn't reply, "Yes, I am you Lord, but not your God."
Rather Jesus replies as follows:
Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
Thus Jesus agreed that He was both Thomas's Lord and his God.
James White is so intellectually dishonest and so blinded by his own advocacy that his opinion doesn’t go very far with me. But I do intend to listen to that debate.Paidion wrote:Well... I don't think the Greek is contrary to the interpretation that Darin places on the expression.
Then there's Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation to consider:
Thomas was simply using slang language, just as someone today might exclaim in response to an unexpected event, "My Lord!" or "Oh, my God!"
Hello PaidionPaidion wrote:Well... I don't think the Greek is contrary to the interpretation that Darin places on the expression.
Then there's Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation to consider:
Thomas was simply using slang language, just as someone today might exclaim in response to an unexpected event, "My Lord!" or "Oh, my God!"