Trinities podcast (John 8:58)

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darinhouston
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Re: Trinities podcast

Post by darinhouston » Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:18 pm

Seballius wrote:
Paidion wrote:Well... I don't think the Greek is contrary to the interpretation that Darin places on the expression.

Then there's Jehovah's Witnesses' interpretation to consider:
Thomas was simply using slang language, just as someone today might exclaim in response to an unexpected event, "My Lord!" or "Oh, my God!"
Hello Paidion

Have you seen examples of this in the literature of this time? I have not. Although I am sure you have read more than me.

I think it is unlikely that Thomas would use such an expression. As sensitive as the Jews were, such an expression via that manner of exclamation would probably be disrespectful if not blasphemous.


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I tend to agree. Though I would also would think it unlikely that he would make such an overt declaration that Jesus was God without direct scriptural dialogue about it. Especially Considering the debates around circumcision and diet and that sort of thing. The argument for silence usually isn’t very strong. But in this case I think it is highly probative if not convincing.


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Seballius
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Re: Trinities podcast

Post by Seballius » Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:24 pm

Hello Darin

I do agree with you about White. About 10 years ago, I leaned towards Calvinism for a short time after reading R C Sproul’s book “Chosen by God”. One of the reasons, I went away from that leaning was the attitudes of men like White. I do find him abrasive, but he has studied the issue extensively and he knows NT Greek. Although I do think one always needs to consider the presuppositions of the presenter.


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darinhouston
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Trinities podcast

Post by darinhouston » Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:29 pm

Seballius wrote:Hello Darin

I do agree with you about White. About 10 years ago, I leaned towards Calvinism for a short time after reading R C Sproul’s book “Chosen by God”. One of the reasons, I went away from that leaning was the attitudes of men like White. I do find him abrasive, but he has studied the issue extensively and he knows NT Greek. Although I do think one always needs to consider the presuppositions of the presenter.


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I have little basis to prove this. But I often wonder how much Greek he really knows. He holds himself up as an authority and has great skills of bombast. But he often uses such certain and definite language and insists some rules are uniform that others seem to disagree with or on my lay investigation see is a recent discovery on little textual evidence.

But I’m a little out my depth on that.


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Seballius
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Re: Trinities podcast

Post by Seballius » Sun Jun 16, 2019 3:10 pm

I did read Tuggy’s book, What is the Trinity, this last week. It mainly focuses on the history and development of the doctrine in church history and the philosophical problems that he sees in it. He presents his points in an irenic fashion and that is refreshing. However, he does not dig into the actual biblical texts that are often debated.

Since reading his book, I have decided to go through the whole NT and write down all the descriptions that are given to Jesus. Let’s see how long that takes me. So far I have completed up to Matthew 14. It has surprised me, having a different set of eyes, how much Jesus subordinates himself to the Father.


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Paidion
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Re: Trinities podcast

Post by Paidion » Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:49 pm

Seballius, you wrote:I think it is unlikely that Thomas would use such an expression. As sensitive as the Jews were, such an expression via that manner of exclamation would probably be disrespectful if not blasphemous.
I brought it up only to present yet another view. I don't put any credence in it either.
Paidion

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darinhouston
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Re: BIPOC

Post by darinhouston » Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:22 am

Seballius wrote:
Wed Jul 08, 2020 10:13 am
darinhouston wrote:Like ADOS - American Descendants of Slavery
My question is off this topic. Are you still listening to the trinities podcast? What are your thoughts? In other words, do you agree with D. Tuggy?


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Yes, this is a bit off-topic. Hard to say I agree with him completely since he spends more time interacting with others' ideas than affirmatively presenting his own, but I'd say I agree with 80% of his positions. He has a number of areas where he could go any number of places other than traditional interpretation. But, on balance, I tend to think he's on the right track. This is one of the problems in this area. It's sort of like Calvinism -- it's one thing to show how utterly wrong those doctrines are, but you aren't responding to a monolithic opinion, and it's harder to fill in the gaps of "mystery" or un-revealed truth than it is to show how one view is wrong. There are a wide variety of opinions about various aspects of the trinity -- and Tuggy's criticisms of them all have seemed spot on to me - even if they "could" be true, it's clear that they are mostly speculation and shouldn't be "doctrine." Some of them are just plain illogical or inconsistent with Scripture. But, filling in those remaining gaps to explain certain aspects like pre-existence or the role and character of the Spirit with a positive theory is harder mainly because it's not revealed or even discussed much.

I do think it's pretty clear that some flavor of subordinationism is true and that Logos Trinitarianism with a pre-existent Jesus and three separate persons of a trinitarian equal and co-eternal Godhead is likely not.

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Seballius
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Re: Trinities podcast

Post by Seballius » Wed Jul 08, 2020 8:07 pm

Thank you for your reply!


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dwight92070
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Re: Trinities podcast (John 8:58)

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Feb 24, 2021 8:58 am

Seballius,

When our non-Trinitarian friends try to explain away John 8:58, they want us to believe that the very words in front of us do not actually mean what they obviously mean. All of their arguments, in my opinion, fall to the ground on this verse, especially, but also on so many others. In fact, for all of the verses we've given them, their answer is the same - "Here's what that verse REALLY means" blah-blah-blah No disrespect meant but as I've stated before, the more explaining away they do on these verses, the further they get from the truth -in my opinion.

They also want us to believe that translators with Trinitarian persuasion have deliberately translated the Greek and the Hebrew incorrectly so that the translation ends up supporting their view. Is this possible? Yes, but is it likely with so many verses that proclaim that Jesus is God? I don't think so. Also, I would venture to say that, of the men who have translated the Greek and the Hebrew throughout the centuries, the majority were sincere and honest, deliberately trying to be unbiased. Also, I believe God watches over His word, to preserve it's accuracy, so that mankind will always have access to the truth. Are their charlatans and false teachers? Of course, but their are also sincere, honest, men who loved God and feared Him enough to attempt to produce an accurate translation.

They want us to believe that there is God and there is man, but there is also a third category -i.e. one particular man who is worthy of worship and praise and adoration (although one posted that you're really worshipping the Father, not this man), who is not God. Some of them say that this one man, who is often called the same names as the Father - God, Eternal Father, Savior, Lord, Redeemer, Creator, I AM, the Word, King of Kings and Lord of Lords, Wonderful, Counselor, the mighty God - is actually neither God nor the Father. This one man is worshipped by all of heaven, including myriads of myriads and thousands of thousands of angels - he is given EQUAL worship as is given to the Father - yet, they say, He is not God.

Jesus said, "The Father is in Me and I am in the Father." Obviously, we don't fully understand that, but Jesus WANTED US TO KNOW THAT, so we CAN understand it to some degree - to the degree that we give Him equal worship as to God our Father, and that the Father is pleased when we understand that Jesus was Emmanuel - God with us. Jesus and the Father are One.

God bless you,

Dwight

commonsense
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Re: Trinities podcast (John 8:58)

Post by commonsense » Fri Mar 26, 2021 3:26 pm

Before Abraham was God (I AM).

There can be several explanations for this. In the Old Testament, God often says "Walk before Me, and I will be your God and you will be my people."
Abraham did "walk before God." He was faithful to God's word.

It's also true that God existed before Abraham and there were people who had the knowledge of this One true God and obeyed his word.

It's assumed that the Levitical law came from Abraham. But, in my opinion, that's a false assumption. A lot of people view the Bible as a progressive revelation, kind of like evolution where you start with the caveman and increase in intelligence as time moves forward. I don't think that's the case. Jesus was taking us back to the beginning, when it was just God and a man who loved God and loved others as himself, a time when there were no foreign gods, doctrines, beliefs, etc. in existence yet.

This is the way it was in the beginning of Israel as well. "For the Lord's portion is His people; Jacob is the place of his inheritance. He found him in a desert land and in the wasteland, a howling wilderness; He encircled him, instructed him and kept him as the apple of His eye. So the Lord alone led him and there was no foreign god with him."

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Paidion
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Re: Trinities podcast (John 8:58)

Post by Paidion » Fri Mar 26, 2021 4:50 pm

commonsense, that's not common sense!

Look at the passage:
"Your father Abraham rejoiced that he would see my day. He saw it and was glad."
So the Jews said to him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:56-58 EV)


Jesus answered their question, ""You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?"
How would saying that God existed before Abraham answer it?
Rather Jesus was saying that HE existed before Abraham.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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