clarity of scripture doesn't uphold the Trinity

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Paidion
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Re: clarity of scripture doesn't uphold the Trinity

Post by Paidion » Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:58 pm

Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. (Philippians 2:5-7 RSV)

The word which the RSV translates as "servant" is "δουλος" which actually means "slave."

Jesus was of the same essence as the Father. Having been begotten by the Father before all ages as the Father's first act, He was truly the Son of God. I understand Paul as saying that though He was in the form of God, He did not seek equality with the Father or try to hold onto the equality He previously held, but emptied Himself of His divine attributes, becoming a slave of God as a fully human being. As a human being, He could no longer directly perform miracles, but performed them through the power of the spirit of His Father who dwelt within Him.

I once wrote this little song about this passage. You can sing it to the tune, "Jesus Lover of my Soul."

Let in you be the same mind
Which in Jesus Christ we find,
Who though fullest Deity
Did not seek equality.
But He emptied Himself to save,
Having taken the form of a slave.
Born like to sinful man,
He obeyed to death's last pain.

After this great deed of Love,
God exalted Him above.
Highest name is Jesus now
At which every knee shall bow,
And shall every tongue confess
Jesus Christ is Lord — no less!
So Beloved, now obey,
Even as you have alway.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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21centpilgrim
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Re: clarity of scripture doesn't uphold the Trinity

Post by 21centpilgrim » Sat Jun 01, 2019 9:12 pm

mattrose wrote:
Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:08 pm

Christ emptied himself of all but love

He was given back what was His before the beginning of time, for example

"And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began"
~ John 17:5
before the world began is an interesting phrase because at times it means not a literal past occurrence but a promise from of old- anyways....

So you would also apply Christ becoming a life-giving spirit to actually mean him re-becoming one since, in your opinion it seems, he had this quality previously?

The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

As Jesus continually referred to himself and Daniel's 7 Son of Man- it would seem that there was not a re-giving of once what was but a one time giving - "to him was given dominion
and glory and a kingdom,
that all peoples, nations, and languages
should serve him;
his dominion is an everlasting dominion,
which shall not pass away,
and his kingdom one
that shall not be destroyed."
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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Paidion
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Re: clarity of scripture doesn't uphold the Trinity

Post by Paidion » Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:30 pm

21¢, you wrote:before the world began is an interesting phrase because at times it means not a literal past occurrence but a promise from of old- anyways....
Even the words of this translation are not literal. A literal translation of the Greek would be:

with the glory, which I was having, before of the the world to be, with you.
Paidion

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BrotherAlan
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Re: clarity of scripture doesn't uphold the Trinity

Post by BrotherAlan » Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:38 am

21centpilgrim wrote:
Christ gave what was given to him, so yes he had it but he had it because the Father gave it to him, it was not 'in himself' inherently but granted to him by the Father.

John 5:26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself.

This verse seems to directly challenge your statement.
The Father eternally generates the Son in the very same Divine Nature which the Father has, giving to the Son the very same Divine Nature. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God [i.e., God the Father], and the Word was God [i.e., God the Son].” (John 1:1) Thus, both the Father and the Son fully possess the Divine Nature and, thus, both Persons are fully God. So, the Father has life in Himself and, by eternally generating the Son in that very same Divine Nature, He has granted the Son to also have life in Himself. For this reason, the Son is able to grant to us eternal life.



21centpilgrim wrote:
Also the same with authority

John 5:27 And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man.
Matt 28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore .......
¬In these verses, Christ is referring to the fact that He, as man, in His human nature, has received all authority in heaven and on earth (note, for example, that in the verse given from John, Christ refers to Himself as the Son of MAN, indicating that He is referring to the fact that He, as MAN, has received authority from the Father. Similarly in Mt. 28:18.

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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Paidion
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Re: clarity of scripture doesn't uphold the Trinity

Post by Paidion » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:15 pm

Brother Alan, you wrote:The Father eternally generates the Son in the very same Divine Nature which the Father has, giving to the Son the very same Divine Nature.
Nowhere is it written that the Father eternally generates the Son. The is a later reconstruction.
New Testament statements re the begetting of the Son, relate that begetting as a single historical event.

(Acts 13:33) this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm, "’You are my Son, today I have begotten you.’

(Hebrews 1:5) For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"? Or again, "I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son"?

(Hebrews 5:5) So also Christ did not exalt himself to be made a high priest, but was appointed by him who said to him, "You are my Son, today I have begotten you"...


As a Roman Catholic, you must be aware that Ignatius, who was a child at the time of Jesus' death, born around A.D. 30, wrote in his letter to the Magnesians, Chapter XI these words concerning Christ:

..Christ, who was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the virgin, Mary...


Justin Martyr, born around A.D. 110 wrote:

...being begotten in a peculiar manner Word and Power by Him, and having afterwards become man through the Virgin, as we have learned from the memoirs. (Dialogue with Trypho Ch. 105)

Justin also compared the begetting of the Son to a small fire that has been started from a large fire. The small fire is of the same essence as the large fire, but yet is a different fire.
Paidion

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BrotherAlan
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Re: clarity of scripture doesn't uphold the Trinity

Post by BrotherAlan » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:12 pm

Hey, Paidion--
Peace.

Thanks for those passages. However, if one has a proper understanding of Trinitarian theology, one sees that not only do these passages which you gave here (both Scriptural and from the Fathers) do NOT contradict Trinitarian theology, but actually support it.

I don't have time to explain all of them right now (maybe later), but the reference to Psalm 2, given multiple times in the Hebrews, of "You are my Son, this day I have begotten you," refers to the "Day of Eternity", in which God the Father, from all eternity, begets His eternal Son. Neither is these to be seen as a "cop out" since the word "Day" is used, because God, being Eternal, does not exist in time, but, rather, exists in an 'eternal/everlasting moment", an "eternal Day", and, so, in that Eternal Day, the Father begets His true Son, Jesus Christ (the Name He took when He took a human nature to Himself), sharing perfectly the Divine Nature of the Father. The crux of the issue in seeing this is seeing that Jesus Christ is of the same substance as the Father; if that is seen, it is understood that the Divine Generation of the Son from the Father is an eternal generation...if it is not seen, one falls into the idea that the Son was begotten at a moment in time.

Perhaps more later, though, when I have-- speaking of time-- more TIME!

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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Paidion
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Re: clarity of scripture doesn't uphold the Trinity

Post by Paidion » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:30 pm

Brother Alan, you wrote:Perhaps more later, though, when I have-- speaking of time-- more TIME!
That's okay. Perhaps you can give an eternal explanation! :lol:
Last edited by Paidion on Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
Paidion

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BrotherAlan
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Re: clarity of scripture doesn't uphold the Trinity

Post by BrotherAlan » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:52 pm

Funny one, Paidion!

As this thread's topic overlaps the topic of the other thread on the Trinity, I'll give other comments on that thread (but, I will not give an "eternal explanation"!)

In Christ,
BrotherAlan
"Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,
as it was in the beginning, is now, and always, and unto the ages of ages. Amen."

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