Trinities podcast

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Seballius
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Re: Trinities podcast

Post by Seballius » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:13 am

Hello Paidion

You have said in previous posts that your belief of the Godhead is the one that the earliest Christians had/shared.

Harold O.J. Brown in his book “Heresies” differs with you on this point. Here are a few quotes:

“Although it would take orthodoxy close to three centuries to settle on the definition of consubstantiality, no one had yet ventured to teach what Arius was now proclaiming: that the Logos is radically different from the Father, of a different substance.” p 116

“But to the extent that a Logos was taught at all, no one before Lucian of Antioch and Arius had contended that the Logos is categorically different.” p 116



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Paidion
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Re: Trinities podcast

Post by Paidion » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:40 pm

Greetings Seb,

I don't understand how there words of Brown DIFFERS with me that my belief is that of the earliest Christians.

The quote which you gave mentions what Arius taught. I do NOT, like Arius, hold that "that the Logos is radically different from the Father, of a different substance.” Rather I have stated as clearly as I know how, that the Logos (the divine Son), having been begotten before all ages (not created) by the Father, is of the same essence as He.
Paidion

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Seballius
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Trinities podcast

Post by Seballius » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:46 pm

Paidion wrote:Greetings Seb,

I don't understand how there words of Brown DIFFERS with me that my belief is that of the earliest Christians.

The quote which you gave mentions what Arius taught. I do NOT, like Arius, hold that "that the Logos is radically different from the Father, of a different substance.” Rather I have stated as clearly as I know how, that the Logos (the divine Son), having been begotten before all ages (not created) by the Father, is of the same essence as He.
Hello

So the differences between your belief and the trinitarian belief are (concerning Jesus), you do not think the Word/Son is eternal, and you think that the Son is a lesser God?

Thanks in advance for your response!




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Paidion
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Re: Trinities podcast

Post by Paidion » Sat Jun 08, 2019 5:35 pm

Seballius, you wrote:So the differences between your belief and the trinitarian belief are (concerning Jesus), you do not think the Word/Son is eternal, and you think that the Son is a lesser God?
NO!

I am not sure what you mean about the Son being "eternal." Do you believe that time extends infinitely into the past? If so, what was God doing during all that infinite time? Just sitting there doing nothing?

My belief is that the act of God begetting His Son, was the very first event ever to occur, and that this event marked the beginning of time.
So, contrary to the Arians, there WASN'T a time at which the Son did not exist, for there was no events prior to that first act of God, simply because THERE WAS NO "BEFORE"!

I don't know what you mean by my thinking the Son is a "lesser" God? In what sense would He be lesser? Because He was begotten, and His Father was unbegotten? I don't see that as resulting in His being a "lesser God." He was just as divine as His Father, and so that doesn't sound "lesser" to me.

No, my main difference with the Trinitarians is that they believe in a compound God—a God that is made up of three entities, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. If that were the case, one would expect at least some instances of the word "God" in the Bible to refer to the Trinity. BUT THERE IS NOT A SINGLE INSTANCE OF THIS! Rather, well over 90% of the time, the word refers to the Father alone.

Another difference, is that Trinitarians refer to Jesus as true God, whereas Jesus Himself in His prayer to the Father, addressed Him as "the only true God." (John 17:3). So although Jesus is equally divine, only the Father is the true God.

I trust that this clarifies my position.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Trinities podcast

Post by Homer » Sat Jun 08, 2019 10:06 pm

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
I am not sure what you mean about the Son being "eternal." Do you believe that time extends infinitely into the past? If so, what was God doing during all that infinite time? Just sitting there doing nothing?
Do you believe that God did not exist infinitely into the past, i.e. that God had come into being at the exact time Jesus was begotten, as you say?

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Paidion
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Re: Trinities podcast

Post by Paidion » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:54 pm

Do you believe that God did not exist infinitely into the past?
What I believe, Homer, is than an infinite past does not/did not exist.

Since there is no infinite past your question is redundant.
Paidion

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Paidion
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Re: Trinities podcast

Post by Paidion » Sun Jun 09, 2019 3:59 pm

that God had come into being at the exact time Jesus was begotten?
No. God did not "come into existence" since time began with His act of begetting the Son.

For God to have "come into existence" there would have had to have been a time prior to the begetting of the Son. But there was no "before."
I know this is difficult for our minds to grasp, but for me, it is far harder to grasp the concept of an infinite past.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Trinities podcast

Post by Homer » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:43 pm

Hi Paidion,

How is it any harder to think of an infinite past than it is to think of an infinite future? Seems to me if there is no infinite past that God had a beginning. If we say time began when Jesus was begotten we would have to say God existed prior to, as you say, His first act of begetting Jesus.

Perhaps our finite minds are the problem!

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Paidion
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Re: Trinities podcast

Post by Paidion » Sun Jun 09, 2019 9:42 pm

If we say time began when Jesus was begotten we would have to say God existed prior to, as you say, His first act of begetting Jesus.
Prior to? If time actually began at the begetting of the Son, then there was no "prior to." Notwithstanding, I understand why you think so. From our way of thinking, God had to exist in order to beget His Son. I don't claim to be able to explain how that is possible. But it would be much more difficult to explain an infinite regression of time into the past.

I will say this, however. As I see it, in order for time to "exist" there must be events. For isn't that what time is? A way of measuring the temporal distance between events? But what events took place before "the Beginning"? Isn't that what "the Beginning" means?—the beginning of events?

So it seems to me to be impossible that there could be an infinite time in the past with no events at all.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Homer
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Re: Trinities podcast

Post by Homer » Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:49 am

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
So it seems to me to be impossible that there could be an infinite time in the past with no events at all.
It seems to me you are basing your thinking on the idea that there is no existence outside the material creation. If we consider that "in the beginning" references the material world, that would not preclude the prior existence of an immaterial "Spirit world". For example, when were angels created? We know they were present when the world was created; they witnessed God's creation of the foundations of the earth, praising God for the beauty and majesty of His work.

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