Jesus the mediator

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus the mediator

Post by Paidion » Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:32 pm

Seballius, you wrote:Paidion - you favorably talked of the JW’s translation in regards to John 1:1.

No, I didn't talk favorably of it. I merely referred to the NWT as one approach to translating the clause "και θεος ην ο λογος" though I believe it to be incorrect translation.
Are you a JW?
No.
Or do you consider yourself a believer of Arianism?
No.
Paidion

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StevenD
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Re: Jesus the mediator

Post by StevenD » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:45 am

Although I don't know of any examples in John's Gospel, Peter opens his second epistle with a phrase that identifies Jesus Christ as [the] God.

In 2 Pet. 1:1 the article is used with "our God and savior Jesus Christ". As the phrase is all in the same case, the case necessarily links [the] God with Jesus Christ as well as with savior.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus the mediator

Post by Paidion » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:27 am

Hi Steven, you wrote:Peter opens his second epistle with a phrase that identifies Jesus Christ as [the] God.
I don't think he does. If he did, he would be contradicting the words that Jesus addressed to His Father in prayer:

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

Jesus not only called His Father "The only true God" but with that little conjunction "and" added Himself as if He were someone other than the only true God.

Most translations, such as that of the ESV which follows, indicates that Peter addressed his letter
"To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ."

Yes, "our God" is translated from the literal "the God of us" and doubtless refers the the Father, the true God. However,"the Savior of us" could be understood after the conjunction "and" without actually including it. Let me give you another example that does the same thing. I might say that I am going to meet my wife and my daughter Winnipeg. But in telling this to someone, I might omit the second "my" and say, "I am going to meet my wife and daughter in Winnipeg." Clearly in saying this, I don't mean that my wife and daughter are the same person.
Paidion

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Singalphile
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Re: Jesus the mediator

Post by Singalphile » Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:43 pm

If anyone knows of a good debate/discussion between a binitarian and a trinitarian, let me know, please. I'm probably somewhere in between those views (but defaulting to the latter), but I can only find debates between unitarians and trinitarians.

My only contribution to this discussion is that I don't know of any father who ever got mad at somebody for thinking too highly of his beloved son.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Re: Jesus the mediator

Post by Paidion » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:29 pm

Singalphile, you wrote:If anyone knows of a good debate/discussion between a binitarian and a trinitarian, let me know, please. I'm probably somewhere in between those views (but defaulting to the latter), but I can only find debates between unitarians and trinitarians.
If there has been such a debate or discussion, I have never heard of it. It seems to me that the major problem with both trinitarians and binitarians is the concept that God is a composite Being, composed of either three individual divine Persons, or two. Yet, the word "God" as used by the Scriptural writers NEVER refers to a composite Being, and in over 95% of cases (in my estimation) the referent of the word is the Father alone.

I suppose I would have to be classified as a unitarian, since, like Jesus, I believe in "one true God." That is how Jesus addressed His Father. However, having said that, I must declare that I do not hold the position of classical unitarians, for they deny the deity of Christ, whereas I believe that Jesus is just as divine as His Father in virtue of the fact (if the beliefs of the early Christians can be called "facts") that He was begotten by God "before all ages," the first of God's acts. So the Son of God may be called "God" (in the generic sense) just as the son of a man can be called "man." The son of a man is human; the son of God is divine.
My only contribution to this discussion is that I don't know of any father who ever got mad at somebody for thinking too highly of his beloved son.
I would appreciate knowing what you have in mind with that statement. Do you know anyone who thinks too little of Christ? To hold that He is not the Father, or a part of a compound God, is not to think less of Him than He truly is. Did He think too lowly of Himself when He declared, "The Father is greater than I"? (John 14:28)
Paidion

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StevenD
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Re: Jesus the mediator

Post by StevenD » Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:48 am

Hi Paidion,

Thanks for your time and thoughts. You cited and said the following:
Paidion wrote:
Hi Steven, you wrote:Peter opens his second epistle with a phrase that identifies Jesus Christ as [the] God.
I don't think he does. If he did, he would be contradicting the words that Jesus addressed to His Father in prayer:

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. (John 17:3)

Jesus not only called His Father "The only true God" but with that little conjunction "and" added Himself as if He were someone other than the only true God.

Most translations, such as that of the ESV which follows, indicates that Peter addressed his letter
"To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ."

Yes, "our God" is translated from the literal "the God of us" and doubtless refers the the Father, the true God. However,"the Savior of us" could be understood after the conjunction "and" without actually including it. Let me give you another example that does the same thing. I might say that I am going to meet my wife and my daughter Winnipeg. But in telling this to someone, I might omit the second "my" and say, "I am going to meet my wife and daughter in Winnipeg." Clearly in saying this, I don't mean that my wife and daughter are the same person.
I think that I see the point of your illustration. You make a reasonable argument from English syntax that the phrase "my wife and daughter" need not imply that one is married to his daughter.

On the other hand, does not the Greek phrase of 2 Pet. 1:1 remove some of the ambiguity that might otherwise blur English translations? The article and every noun in the phrase "our God and saviour Jesus Christ" is cast in the genitive case. The nouns "God [our]" and "savior" are joined by the word "and" (kai). Unless I'm mistaken, a grammatical rule that applies to Greek syntax states that on such occasions both nouns/substantives identify as the same referent.

Let me admit that I barely know enough Greek to be dangerous. Regardless, the Granville Sharp rule seems to be widely attested: http://www.theopedia.com/granville-sharps-rule

The article linked above describes a another phrase found in Titus 2:13 that contains vocabulary similar to that of 2 Pet. 1:1, also packaged in the genitive case. According to the rule, the verse in Titus also identifies Jesus Christ as [the] God. It is my aim to understand these verses as best I can according to the grammatical intent expressed by Peter and Paul, regardless of how that might tilt the balance of my other thoughts about what the Scriptures say. Unless I'm mistaken, you would take a similar approach?
Last edited by StevenD on Fri Jul 06, 2018 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Singalphile
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Re: Jesus the mediator

Post by Singalphile » Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:47 am

Thanks, Paidion, for the feedback. My opinion about the relationship between the Father and Son is pretty much the same as in the trinitarian model, I think, but I'm not sure that the Spirit (though "personal" and divine) has that same kind of relationship, as you have explained. It would be nice to hear some back and forth about that.

My second comment (about a father getting mad at someone who thought too much of hia son) was not directed at anyone here. It's just a general rule, I think. The father/son relationship is what has been presented to us, after all. I'd rather esteem Him too much than too little, but that doesn't prove anything, of course. Your reference there is well noted.
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus the mediator

Post by Paidion » Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:03 pm

Hi Steven you wrote:The article and every noun in the phrase "our God and saviour Jesus Christ" is cast in the genitive case.
That is correct. Both are in the genitive case. Thus it seems to me that this would indicate that it would be better translated "our God and our Savior Jesus Christ." However, that looks even more like two Individuals.

Thank you for your courteous words, and you too, Singalphile, for yours.
Paidion

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crgfstr1
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Re: Jesus the mediator

Post by crgfstr1 » Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:58 am

Maybe there is something more to this that I miss. I don't see how this is confusing. I see it like this. Pick your favorite version of the bible. Make 3 copies of it. One dwells in heaven and is everywhere as well, one came down to earth and became our savior, and one dwells within all Christians teaching us. It is the same bible. Turn it to the same page, it will say the exact same thing. It is in different places. The one in heaven and everywhere could be said to be greater because it is omnipresent while the others aren't. They each fulfill different roles, but they are the same thing. I could have randomly selected which book went where and the same thing would have resulted either way. The same character, the same love, the same truth.

Am I missing something bigger in all of this.

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Paidion
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Re: Jesus the mediator

Post by Paidion » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:10 pm

Your 3 Bibles may have exactly the same content, but they still 3 Bibles and not the same Bible ("same" in the sense of "identical")
The Son of God is the exact expression of the Father's essence (Heb 1:3) but He is not the same Person as the Father. That is, He is not the Father Himself.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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