When was the Trinity revealed?

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robbyyoung
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Post by robbyyoung » Fri May 18, 2018 11:18 am

Paidion wrote:Also, Justin Martyr (A.D. 110-165) in his Dialogue with Trypho, quoted Genesis 24, indicating that the Father and the Son share the name "Yahweh."
Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of heaven.
He said that the Yahweh on earth who talked with Abraham was the Son of God, and that through Him, the Yahweh in heaven (The Father) caused the sulfur and fire to be rained on Sodom and Gomorrah.
Hi Paidion,

Moreover, it appears that the Son of God is not inherently all knowing--as The Father--and by Yeshua's own admission, He is actually taught by The Father
John 8:28 - … I do nothing on my own authority, but speak just as the Father taught me.
Notably, Mark 13:32 provides evidence of this Father and Son relationship and dichotomy between who is and is not omniscient. If Yeshua is and was both human and divine, I think His divine knowledge would have been present and consistent during His earthly ministry. In fact, He exhibited His divine knowledge of past, present, and future events numerous times.

If YAHWEH was in fact the Son interacting with humanity throughout scripture, this would would explain the apparent limited knowledge associated with so-called free-will agents. The Father cannot be surprised but His divine counsel of principalities, to include the Son, can seemingly discover new possibilities. I know this line of inquiry may be highly controversial, but that's why we have discussions. Your thoughts?

Blessings.

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Paidion
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Post by Paidion » Fri May 18, 2018 9:05 pm

I'm not sure that I'm understanding you correctly Robby, and so I won't comment on your statements.

But I will express my thoughts. I think that the Son is a divine Individual, begotten by the Father, the first of the Father's acts, and is a different Person from the Father, but equally divine. However,when He became human, He divested Himself of His divine attributes, so that He was no longer omniscient. The only thing He retained was His identity as the Son of God.
Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death— even death on a cross. (Philippians 2:5-9 NRSV)
Thus He was totally human while He lived on the earth as a human, and had the same human limitations as other human beings. However, His trust in His Father was absolute, so that the Father performed many miracles THROUGH Him. But after the Father raised Him from the dead, He regained the divine attributes which He no longer had possessed as a human being.
But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only. For as were the days of Noah, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.(Matthew 24:6,7)
Jesus uttered these words while He walked this earth as a human being. As a human being, Jesus didn't know when His second coming would take place. But now, fully divine again, He does know.
Paidion

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robbyyoung
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Post by robbyyoung » Fri May 18, 2018 10:35 pm

Hi Paidion,

Yeshua never stopped being in the form of God, whatever that means, when He took on the form of man; the text clearly states this. Nonetheless, how can God deny himself from ever being God? The text in no way eludes to this understanding. IMO, the text says that Yeshua remained in the form of God but divested Himself of any glorious manifestation while in human form. Furthermore, when Yeshua ascended back to His rightful state in heaven, we read in Revelations 1:1 that The Father gave Him additional information? If He is on par with The Father regarding omniscience, why would He need to be given anything He didn't already know in His eternal state?

The Son was fully God or divine when in human form, but we read He was not omniscient. The Son returns to His rightful position in heaven, and The Father still reveals additional information to the Son (Rev 1:1); therefore, He still isn't omniscient, as The Father, in His glorious state. Yeshua not knowing the day or hour of His own return is problematic and has nothing to do with Him taking on human form, for He never relinquished His Godly essence or self-awareness. Although Yeshua is one with The Father, the Son proclaims The Father is His God; but where do we read that the Son is The Father's God? Your thoughts?

Blessings.

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Paidion
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Post by Paidion » Sat May 19, 2018 9:35 pm

Well, I have expressed my understanding. Seemingly you have a different interpretation.
Just to state my belief more succinctly:

The divine Son of God became human—FULLY human—not half God and half human. In becoming fully human, He emptied Himself of ALL His divine attributes. As a human being He retained NOTHING of His pre-incarnate existence except His identity as the Son of God. As a man, He did no miracles. It was His Father who dwelt within Him who healed the sick, raised the dead, enabled Him to walk on water, etc. He Himself said:
...the Father who dwells in me does his works. (John 14:10)
Paidion

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robbyyoung
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Post by robbyyoung » Sun May 20, 2018 10:33 am

Paidion wrote:Well, I have expressed my understanding. Seemingly you have a different interpretation.
Just to state my belief more succinctly:

The divine Son of God became human—FULLY human—not half God and half human. In becoming fully human, He emptied Himself of ALL His divine attributes. As a human being He retained NOTHING of His pre-incarnate existence except His identity as the Son of God. As a man, He did no miracles. It was His Father who dwelt within Him who healed the sick, raised the dead, enabled Him to walk on water, etc. He Himself said:
...the Father who dwells in me does his works. (John 14:10)
Hi Paidion,

Yeshua’s form or likeness (homoioma) was both human and God, that's what the text says. IMO, God cannot stop being God. But what Yeshua did, was, honor The Father by humbling himself in the likeness of man whilst serving The Father's purpose in his prophetic role on earth. Again, I believe, when he “emptied” himself, he didn’t stop being God. Think of it in light of the mount of transfiguration and its glorious manifestation of the Son's true form as God, and, that is what he divested himself of while on earth. The nature of the Son have always been to honor The Father above himself – Yeshua state’s a truth concerning his eternal relationship with The Father in John 5:19:
So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.
This relationship, as the Son, isn’t confined to Yeshua’s incarnation. In the heavenly realm, he IS the Son, and The Father is his one true God; therefore, John 5:19 applies to both realms. In other words, Yeshua's actions are contingent upon The Father's actions both in heaven and on earth. Thus, John 14:10 is another affirmation of this same basic truth. So then, this understanding can be applied to the creation account as well.

So, the Son seems to be self-constrained or limited, acting on what is only forecasted and exhibited by The Father. The Father and Son relationship is most assuredly unique. Thanks for the discussion my friend.

Blessings!

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Paidion
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Post by Paidion » Sun May 20, 2018 2:01 pm

Hi Robby, you wrote:This relationship, as the Son, isn’t confined to Yeshua’s incarnation. In the heavenly realm, he IS the Son...
I fully agree that His Sonship isn't confined to his incarnation. As the early Christians affirmed, He was "begotten before all ages, the first of God's acts." So He was the Son of God at the beginning of time, continued to be the Son in His incarnation, and always will be the Son.
...and The Father is his one true God;
Don't you find it a little odd to affirm that God has a God? The Father was His God while He was a man in His incarnation.
therefore, John 5:19 applies to both realms. In other words, Yeshua's actions are contingent upon The Father's actions both in heaven and on earth. Thus, John 14:10 is another affirmation of this same basic truth. So then, this understanding can be applied to the creation account as well.
John 5:19 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

I agree that prior to the incarnation The Father and the Son did everything in harmony. For the Son was another divine Individual who was exactly like the Father (the exact image of the Father's essence—Heb 1:3.) However, didn't the Son have the ABILITY to do something "of His own accord" prior to the incarnation? After all He was just as divine as His Father. But He never did anything on His own, since He and the Father were in perfect harmony—in mind, purpose, etc. But after Jesus was born FULLY human, having divested Himself of His divine attributes, He COULD NOT do anything on His own. Through His total trust in the Father as a man, the Father performed miracles THROUGH Him. He didn't have the power to perform miracles on His own. In this way, our Lord was a wonderful example to us. If we could only learn to trust the Father completely, as Jesus did, would God perform miracles through us, too?

Jesus couldn't send His spirit into His disciples while He yet lived. Why not? Because His spirit was confined to His body. But after His resurrection when He had regained His divine attributes, He and His Father extended their spirit into His disciples, and so They dwelt within His disciples as He has promised to them that they would.

If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. (John 14:23 ESV)

By the way, why do you use the Hebrew form of our Lord's name? Are you Jewish?
Paidion

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robbyyoung
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Post by robbyyoung » Mon May 21, 2018 8:11 am

Paidion wrote:
Hi Robby, you wrote:This relationship, as the Son, isn’t confined to Yeshua’s incarnation. In the heavenly realm, he IS the Son...
I fully agree that His Sonship isn't confined to his incarnation. As the early Christians affirmed, He was "begotten before all ages, the first of God's acts." So He was the Son of God at the beginning of time, continued to be the Son in His incarnation, and always will be the Son.
...and The Father is his one true God;
Don't you find it a little odd to affirm that God has a God? The Father was His God while He was a man in His incarnation.
therefore, John 5:19 applies to both realms. In other words, Yeshua's actions are contingent upon The Father's actions both in heaven and on earth. Thus, John 14:10 is another affirmation of this same basic truth. So then, this understanding can be applied to the creation account as well.
John 5:19 So Jesus said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise.

I agree that prior to the incarnation The Father and the Son did everything in harmony. For the Son was another divine Individual who was exactly like the Father (the exact image of the Father's essence—Heb 1:3.) However, didn't the Son have the ABILITY to do something "of His own accord" prior to the incarnation? After all He was just as divine as His Father. But He never did anything on His own, since He and the Father were in perfect harmony—in mind, purpose, etc. But after Jesus was born FULLY human, having divested Himself of His divine attributes, He COULD NOT do anything on His own. Through His total trust in the Father as a man, the Father performed miracles THROUGH Him. He didn't have the power to perform miracles on His own. In this way, our Lord was a wonderful example to us. If we could only learn to trust the Father completely, as Jesus did, would God perform miracles through us, too?

Jesus couldn't send His spirit into His disciples while He yet lived. Why not? Because His spirit was confined to His body. But after His resurrection when He had regained His divine attributes, He and His Father extended their spirit into His disciples, and so They dwelt within His disciples as He has promised to them that they would.

If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. (John 14:23 ESV)

By the way, why do you use the Hebrew form of our Lord's name? Are you Jewish?
Hi Paidion,

I’m sorry but I believe you are mistaken. The Father was his God on earth (incarnation) and in heaven (restored glory, John 17:5). I know this because Rev. 2:27 reveals it:
And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
And, I do not think it odd that the Son affirms The Father as The One True God. This goes back to the divine counsel doctrine within God’s Word. Furthermore, I see no evidence, in scripture, of the Son acting on his own accord.

Lol! No, I’m not Jewish, but I sometimes like spelling and pronouncing his name in its original form. Thanks again my friend.

Blessings.

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Homer
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Post by Homer » Mon May 21, 2018 10:22 am

I do not believe that it can be shown from the scriptures that Jesus was the Son of God prior to being born of the virgin Mary. There is good evidence that Jesus was "the Angel of the Lord" prior to emptying Himself and coming to live among mankind. And now He is forever the Son.

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Paidion
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Post by Paidion » Mon May 21, 2018 10:48 pm

Hi Homer, you wrote:I do not believe that it can be shown from the scriptures that Jesus was the Son of God prior to being born of the virgin Mary.
What do you think about this verse:
Daniel 3:25 He answered, and said: Behold, I see four men loose, and walking in the midst of the fire, and there is no hurt in them, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
I am aware that several translations have "the son of the gods" or "the son of a god." But the Greek Septuagint (about 300 B.C.) has "THE SON OF GOD." (All letters were in upper case).
Not only so, but it seems to have been the universal opinion of second-century Christians, that Jesus was begotten by the Father "before all ages" and this begetting was "the first of God's acts."

Irenæus (A.D. 120-202) in ch XVIII of Against Heresies Book 3, used the expression "The Son of God having been made the Son of man."
Paidion

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Homer
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Re: When was the Trinity revealed?

Post by Homer » Tue May 22, 2018 8:53 pm

Hi Paidion,

You wrote:
What do you think about this verse:
Daniel 3:25 He answered, and said: Behold, I see four men loose, and walking in the midst of the fire, and there is no hurt in them, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.


I am aware that several translations have "the son of the gods" or "the son of a god." But the Greek Septuagint (about 300 B.C.) has "THE SON OF GOD." (All letters were in upper case).
Not only so, but it seems to have been the universal opinion of second-century Christians, that Jesus was begotten by the Father "before all ages" and this begetting was "the first of God's acts."

Irenæus (A.D. 120-202) in ch XVIII of Against Heresies Book 3, used the expression "The Son of God having been made the Son of man."
I don't think there is support in this verse for Jesus being God's Son at the time of Daniel.

Lange's Commentary notes that it is literally "son of the god"s. Daniel himself does not relate this or refer to additional witnesses; the words are those of Nebuchadnezzar who was polytheistic and would naturally see the God of the Jews as one of many. The translaters of the Septuagint would likely have avoided any mention of Gods; they didn't believe there were any others. Because of this incident Nebuchadnezzar appears to recognize the God of the Jews as superior to all others, v. 26.

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