Is John 12:41 a good proof text for the Trinity?

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21centpilgrim
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Is John 12:41 a good proof text for the Trinity?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Thu Mar 24, 2016 7:36 pm

Regarding John 12:41- Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.

This is immediately following two quotes from Isa.6:10 and Isa. 53:1, and I have heard people use this to support the Trinity.

Is it necessary to conclude that John is affirming Jesus is Jehovah?
Is it not clear enough to affirm that John is claiming that when Isaiah saw the exalted King and the suffering servant, that he saw Jesus' glory?
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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Paidion
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Re: Is John 12:41 a good proof text for the Trinity?

Post by Paidion » Thu Mar 24, 2016 8:17 pm

I have no idea how anyone gets the Trinity out of this passage.
As to your question about Jesus being Jehovah (or "Yahweh" which I think is a better transliteration of the Hebrew Tetragrammaton), I don't see the passage as even hinting at that.

A much better passage that indicates that there are Two who share the name "Yahweh" is Genesis 19:24. Justin Martyr referred to this in his dialogue with Trypho:

One of three "men" who came to Abraham, was addressed as "Yahweh" by Abraham. The other two went to Sodom, but Yahweh remained behind. Later, Yahweh departed also.

Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from Yahweh out of heaven.(Gen 19:24)

This seems to suggest that the Yahweh who spoke to Abraham was the Son, and that the Yahweh in heaven was the Father.
Thus Genesis 19:24 may mean that the Yahweh in heaven used the Yahweh on earth as his agent to bring down the fire on Sodom and Gomorrah.
But this doesn't support the Trinity concept. Rather it indicates that two divine Individuals share the name "Yahweh."
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21centpilgrim
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Re: Is John 12:41 a good proof text for the Trinity?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:23 pm

I heard James White in a debate use this text as a proof for the Trinity, which is why I asked in the first place. I don't see it but maybe others could shed light as they see/read it?
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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Re: Is John 12:41 a good proof text for the Trinity?

Post by morbo3000 » Fri Mar 25, 2016 8:43 pm

This verse is about Jesus' deity. John's gospel has the most full-blown Christology of any of the gospels. It is making the point that Jesus was God much stronger than the others. (Mark doesn't at all, for example.)

But the gospels know nothing of the trinity. It is a theological attempt to synthesize different statements in the gospels and letters that are hard to piece together, especially given the monotheism of Judaism.


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dizerner
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Re: Is John 12:41 a good proof text for the Trinity?

Post by dizerner » Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:31 pm

This is proof for deity not the Trinity.
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21centpilgrim
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Re: Is John 12:41 a good proof text for the Trinity?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Fri Mar 25, 2016 11:39 pm

Well, how is it a proof of deity?
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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Re: Is John 12:41 a good proof text for the Trinity?

Post by dizerner » Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:26 am

21centpilgrim wrote:Well, how is it a proof of deity?
Isaiah saw YHWH high and lifted up. And he saw Jesus' glory. It's pretty clear that is exactly what John wrote.
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21centpilgrim
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Re: Is John 12:41 a good proof text for the Trinity?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:00 am

Isaiah saw Jesus' glory, not Jesus. That is what John says.
They are not the same.
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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Re: Is John 12:41 a good proof text for the Trinity?

Post by dizerner » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:16 am

21centpilgrim wrote:Isaiah saw Jesus' glory, not Jesus. That is what John says.
They are not the same.
ok great argument
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21centpilgrim
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Re: Is John 12:41 a good proof text for the Trinity?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Sat Mar 26, 2016 1:37 am

Jesus said that he shared glory with the Father in John 17.
So in Isaiah seeing the glory of the LORD in Isaiah 6 he was also seeing the glory of Jesus, that does not thereby mean that they are one in the same.

Does that help?
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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