Heb.1:8?

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Paidion
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by Paidion » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:02 am

Choose this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your fathers served in the region beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you dwell. But as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. (Joshua 24:15 ESV)

In this verse, the command is given to choose. The implication is that it is possible to choose. And that's all that free will is—the ability to choose.

But there is no scripture that clearly teaches that God is three divine Persons in One.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dizerner
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by dizerner » Fri Dec 04, 2015 1:30 am

You see, that Scripture does not prove free will to a Calvinist, any more than Trinitarian verses prove the trinity to you. You can't set the level of clarity that you personally want the Scripture to teach the truth with before you accept what the actual implications of the verses are, however indirect. For example, a Calvinist cannot say "I won't believe in free will unless a verse says it to my satisfaction." I'll freely admit the Bible doesn't teach a Trinity to your satisfaction, but you see, whether it teaches it to your satisfaction has no indication at all on whether it teaches it. There are many things I wish the Bible said more clearly but I would never use a lack of my standard of clarity that I prefer to say it is not taught at all. Because you draw a lot more inference of free will in your proof text than you imagine. There is no verse that says "The will of man is autonomous from God's control." The Bible clearly teaches the Trinity indirectly, just as it clearly teaches free will indirectly.
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robbyyoung
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by robbyyoung » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:13 am

dizerner wrote:There is no verse that says "The will of man is autonomous from God's control."
Hello dizerner, these verses clearly suggest man's will is not autonomous from God's control.

John 1:13, "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

John 5:21, "For as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, so also the Son gives life to whom he will."

God Bless.

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dizerner
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by dizerner » Fri Dec 04, 2015 6:45 am

Thanks, robby. I think those verses are not the best to prove that point, as they only speak of the new birth. The best verses for determinism are God doing whatever he wills. My point however was that not all things in Scripture are as directly taught as we want them to be, so it takes a bit of work sometimes.

bless
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robbyyoung
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Heb.1:8?

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:32 am

dizerner wrote:Thanks, robby. I think those verses are not the best to prove that point, as they only speak of the new birth.
The "new birth" is one of the best examples concerning determinism. For example, you (dizerner) did not determine yourself to be born into this world; your biological parents did. Thus, your will was irrelevant in the process. Therefore, when Yeshua told Nicodemus he must be born again, Nicodemus correctly made Yeshua's point by pointing out the obvious; he, of his own will, could not rebirth himself. However, Yeshua doubled-down and insisted the impossible is possible, this new birth is originated by God; his will not our will, just like any natural birth, an outside influence determines your initial exsitence. John 1:13 and 5:21 are very clear to me where I stand in the grand scheme of things.

What happens after our initial birth, which we had nothing to do with, is a different debate altogether. For me, the scriptures are clear in its teaching concerning who was responsible for this "new birth", and God is the declaritive force and initiator of this action.

God Bless.

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dizerner
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by dizerner » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:33 am

Yes, of course, Jesus spent an entire chapter explaining the most beautiful and detailed description of spiritual salvation in all of Scripture just to mock Nicodemus as a vessel created for damnation before the foundation of the world, and not a genuine opportunity for Nicodemus to respond in faith to something above his understanding. Makes perfect sense. Image
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robbyyoung
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by robbyyoung » Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:46 am

dizerner wrote:Yes, of course, Jesus spent an entire chapter explaining the most beautiful and detailed description of spiritual salvation in all of Scripture just to mock Nicodemus as a vessel created for damnation before the foundation of the world, and not a genuine opportunity for Nicodemus to respond in faith to something above his understanding. Makes perfect sense. Image
I will make one last comment regarding this auxillary discussion, because we are moving outside the intent of the OP. Though I can appreciate your emotional response, you did not address who these verses identifies as the initiator. Genuine opportunities may not be narrowly restricted. Many have died in the past and present who never heard of Yeshua and the gospel message. God and Yeshua gives life to whomever they choose. Dead people can't do anything of their own power, they are dead! However, what people decide to do with what has been given to them "life" is their choice, but God says He's the initiator of the action "life".

God Bless.

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dizerner
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by dizerner » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:34 am

My response was logical and not emotional. Also Christ said dead people can hear his voice and live. Also the prodigal son was "dead" but came "alive" by a decision to return. You are simply heavily misusing the metaphorical imagery of death, quite common among Calvinists repeating their teachers.
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21centpilgrim
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:41 pm

Thanks guys for the feedback.

The writer of Hebrews tells us in 2:5 that the world they are speaking of is the new one to come.
"For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking."

So isn't it possible that when the writer quotes- in the beginning you Lord laid the foundations of the earth......' that may be speaking of Messiah being the builder/ foundation of the new heavens and earth?

If that a fair possibility or do you see it as a reach?

Thanks
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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dizerner
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by dizerner » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:52 pm

But it says

11 They pass away but you remain, they all wear out like a garment.
12 Like a cloak you will roll them up, like a garment, and they will be changed. (Heb 1:11-12)

yet the new heavens never pass away.
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