Heb.1:8?

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dizerner
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by dizerner » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:33 pm

And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, even Jesus Christ whom you have sent.

I think this is a grave mistake. Jesus was recognizing his Father as the only true God, not declaring Himself to be the only true God. If He had meant the latter, He wouldn't have addressed "the only true God" as "you." Rather He would have said: "... that they may know ME, the only true God."
I think your argument assumes how God would address himself as a 3 Person yet 1 ontological Being... why not "that they may know US, the only true God?" If Jesus at that time simply wanted to leave out the emphasis that he was God he is not obligated to say it; nor are the Persons of the Trinity obligated in one way or another to always use certain pronouns.

If we take these premises:

1. Every one of the Trinity is fully the only true God.
2. The Trinity together is also fully the only true God.


Then we can make the following true statements:

The only true God has sent the Holy Spirit.
The only true God died on the cross in the purpose of the Father.
The only true God sent Jesus Christ into the world.
The only true God came into the world in the Person of Jesus Christ.


Assuming the above 2 premises it doesn't logically follow that any of the following disprove them.

I do agree that "kai" as meaning "even" is a stretch there (however there really does seem to be places it's used, such as "all sins will be forgiven men KAI whatever blasphemies they may utter" where it seems this narrows down the intent of the all sins in light of the topic of verbal blasphemy and not just all sins of all time).
Last edited by dizerner on Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:35 pm

Hi Steve, you wrote:Some scholars think the LXX preserve the original text better than does the Masoretic (Hebrew) Text. This would be difficult to determine, but the writer of Hebrews, in choosing this text, and in his choice of the LXX in this citation, means that he (and probably all the Christians of his era) thought that referring to Christ as "Yahweh" was not inappropriate.
Steve, I am one of the persons who believes that the LXX preserves the original text better than does the Masoretic (Hebrew) Text. I think this has been determined, if it is agreed that the Hebrew from Cave 4 at Qumran is close to or may even be identical to the original. It seems that the LXX used that form of Hebrew, and the Masoretic text which was completed in the 9th century, had departed significantly from it.

In any case, the Greek "κυριος" means "lord", and although the Hebrew for "Yahweh" was always translated as "o κυριος" (the lord) by the LXX translators, it didn't necessarily refer to Yahweh. The writer to the Hebrews may have understood it to refer to Jesus in the sense that Jesus is Lord."—as the apostle Paul wrote:
...yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist. (1 Corinthians 8:6)
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by dizerner » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:43 pm

John 12:41 directly calls Jesus Yahweh anyway.
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:44 pm

Dizerner, you wrote:The Trinity together is also fully the only true God.
Do you know of even one verse in the Bible where the word "God" clearly refers to a trinity? Indeed do you know of any verse in the Bible that implies a trinity other than 1 John 5:7, which didn't exist in the original but was someone's footnote, and never found its way into the text itself until the ninth century?
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:49 pm

Dizerner wrote:John 12:41 directly calls Jesus Yahweh anyway.
Not at all. Because the previous verses quote things that Isaiah said about Jesus, does not show that anyone directly called Jesus "Yahweh."

Having said this, I do believe that Jesus shares the name "Yahweh" with the Father. Justin Martyr declared that, and justified it by quoting Genesis 19:24:
Then Yahweh rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Yahweh out of heaven.
There was One on earth whom Abraham addressed as "Yahweh" and this was doubtless the Son of God, and there was One in heaven who was Yahweh. According to Moses, the One in heaven was the source of the sulfur and fire, and the One on earth was the means by which the sulfur and fire were brought upon Sodom.
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by StevenD » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:05 am

Hi Jeremiah (and others),

Since the subject of this thread is Hebrews 1:8 I'm still musing on the near context of the verse. Steve Gregg pointed out that Heb. 1:10-12 quotes from Psalm 102:25-27 (LXX) which shows that the citation refers to "my God" (Ps. 102:24; MT: v. 25). Both the header (included in the MT) and the traditional content of the Psalm confirm its aim as a prayer of the poor/afflicted to Yahweh.

One might also note allusions to Psalm 104 along similar lines. Heb. 1:7 cites Ps. 104:4 "who makes his angels spirits; his ministers a flame of fire". Yahweh is also the addressee of Ps. 104. Interestingly, similar to Ps. 102:25 (MT: v. 26), Ps. 104:5 states that the same one "who makes his angels spirits" and so forth (v. 4) also "laid the foundations of the earth" (v. 5).

This strikes me as relevant to this thread as Ps. 104:5 reinforces that the one "who laid the foundations of the earth" (Heb. 1:10; Ps. 102:25 [MT: v. 26]) is Yahweh, just in case that somehow slipped by the mind of the reader. Admittedly, it's difficult to for me imagine how somebody might come to a different conclusion without being determined to do so.

From a different angle, the content of the Epistle to the Hebrews includes features that correspond to the remains of 11Q13 (the "Melchizedek Scroll") in some interesting ways. The Melchizedek Scroll anticipated the coming of a Melchizedek figure at the "end of days" (22.4; cf. Heb. 1:2). This individual was described as a sort of warrior judge who would direct an army of angels in also bringing redemption, liberty to captives, and make atonement on Yom Kippur (also marking the tenth Jubilee which was curiously reckoned according to Daniel's 70 weeks).

The fact that Melchizedek appears to be addressed in 11Q13 as both Yahweh (22.9) and Elohim (22.10, 24-25) may bear record to a previous Jewish exegetical backdrop that the writer of Hebrews chose to develop further, without invoking the sectarian edge that probably linked some of the ideas more specifically to the DSS community. Perhaps New Testament interpretation wasn't as novel as we might be inclined to expect during the Second Temple period..?

Peace in Christ,
Steven D

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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by dizerner » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:06 am

Steven thanks for posting that. That fragment is pretty amazing in the light of Hebrews, and your point seems completely persuasive. The strain of this manuscript could easily have been from earlier Jewish tradition, and so clearly speaking of the function of Messiah while attributing divinity to him, is remarkable. I checked it out in the copy I have, though sadly the English translation softened the original.
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by dizerner » Wed Dec 02, 2015 6:10 am

Do you know of even one verse in the Bible where the word "God" clearly refers to a trinity? Indeed do you know of any verse in the Bible that implies a trinity other than 1 John 5:7, which didn't exist in the original but was someone's footnote, and never found its way into the text itself until the ninth century?
Yea. I don't think your question is sincere, though. You obviously demand a text that says "I God am a Trinity that is three persons." Same type of unrealistic standard the Calvinists demand to "prove" free will from Scripture.
Paidion wrote:
Dizerner wrote:John 12:41 directly calls Jesus Yahweh anyway.
Not at all. Because the previous verses quote things that Isaiah said about Jesus, does not show that anyone directly called Jesus "Yahweh.
You're way off here. John clearly says Isaiah saw his glory; saw it firsthand. There's only one place Isaiah saw a glory firsthand, and that's in the year King Uzziah died. To try to make this some generic glory is to molest the text.
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by Paidion » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:35 pm

I don't think your question is sincere, though.

I am totally sincere.
You obviously demand a text that says "I God am a Trinity that is three persons."
I don't demand that at all. I am only asking that you provide any texts that teach a Trinity. I am not asking for a text that uses the word "Trinity."

I am certain that a person who was not brought up to believe in a Trinity or influenced to believe in a Trinity, would not come to a Trinitarian conclusion no matter what set of Bible texts you presented to him.
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by dizerner » Thu Dec 03, 2015 5:55 am

What if I said to you "Nowhere does the Bible teach man has a free will. Without someone teaching free will no one would ever come to that conclusion because it's not in the Bible."

Is that a convincing argument for you? (Btw, I've literally had people say this to me.)
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