Heb.1:8?

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steve
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by steve » Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:22 am

Hi Jeremiah,

I agree that, if we were to take Psalm 45 alone, without the benefit of the New Testament's application, we would be hard-pressed to make it a proof of Christ's deity. In fact, we would have a hard time proving that it says anything at all about Christ, since the psalmist is not unambiguously addressing the Messiah.

However, I regard the New Testament writers as authoritative interpreters of the Old Testament. The question, then, is "What did the writer of Hebrews believe this verse was saying?" There is no question that he applied the passage to Christ, so we get that controversy behind us at the outset. But was he saying that Jesus is actually deity?

Two factors, in Hebrews 1, convince me that this was his meaning:

First, he is clearly lining up OT texts that demonstrate that Jesus is greater than any angel. In this context, he quotes a passage where Christ is said to be addressed with the vocative "God" (elohim, in the Hebrew original). We know of more than one use of "elohim" in the Old Testament, but of the available options, only one seems to speak of a being higher than God's angels. That would be God Himself. If there are lesser "mighty ones" above the angels, yet not being themselves "God," we are never informed of this in scripture, and the author of Hebrews probably would not expect his readers to know of such.

Second, in making the same argument (that is, Christ's supreme status above the angels), in the following verses, the writer cites Psalm 102:25-27. There, Christ is addressed as Yahweh. True, Hebrews 1:10-12 does not explicitly say that the addressee who is called "Yahwew" is actually Christ, but, in the context of the argument, to whom else could he be referring? It would serve no purpose to his argument simply to cite a generic verse about how great God is, when he is painstakingly making the specific argument establishing how great Christ is.

Since the writer interprets Psalm 102 as referring to Christ as "Yahweh," it seems likely that he is, in the previous citation of Psalm 45, intentionally referring to Christ as the true "God."

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21centpilgrim
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:10 pm

Thanks Steve, I agree we read the OT in light of the NT, but of course we read the OT context. Just as when people try to use 'Jacob I have loved and Esau I have hated' as individual election and looking at the actual context of where it is used in the OT gives light to corporate election, so too we look at a whole passage.
steve wrote: First, he is clearly lining up OT texts that demonstrate that Jesus is greater than any angel. In this context, he quotes a passage where Christ is said to be addressed with the vocative "God" (elohim, in the Hebrew original). We know of more than one use of "elohim" in the Old Testament, but of the available options, only one seems to speak of a being higher than God's angels. That would be God Himself. If there are lesser "mighty ones" above the angels, yet not being themselves "God," we are never informed of this in scripture, and the author of Hebrews probably would not expect his readers to know of such.
When the anointed one is addressed as elohim, why can't the anointed one/messiah be greater/higher than the angles?

Thanks
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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21centpilgrim
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:17 pm

Where is 'Yahweh' in ps. 102:25-27?
steve wrote:
Second, in making the same argument (that is, Christ's supreme status above the angels), in the following verses, the writer cites Psalm 102:25-27. There, Christ is addressed as Yahweh. True, Hebrews 1:10-12 does not explicitly say that the addressee who is called "Yahwew" is actually Christ, but, in the context of the argument, to whom else could he be referring? It would serve no purpose to his argument simply to cite a generic verse about how great God is, when he is painstakingly making the specific argument establishing how great Christ is.

Since the writer interprets Psalm 102 as referring to Christ as "Yahweh," it seems likely that he is, in the previous citation of Psalm 45, intentionally referring to Christ as the true "God."
How can we say that the writer is 'intentionally referring to Christ as the true "God." ', when Jesus explicitly makes it very clear that He is not when He say in John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."?
Jesus clearly says that there is only one true God and that there is Himself as well.

Thanks
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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Paidion
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 30, 2015 2:49 pm

21¢Pilgrim, I don't think you can regard "elohim" as not being God in verse 6, in Psalm 45, while regarding it as God in verse 7. For the Hebrew "elohim" is used in both verse.

However, it might be interested to know that the Jewish Study Bible, translated by experts in the Hebrew language, begins verse 6 with "Your divine throne is everlasting," though a note states, "This may also be translated as, 'Your throne, O God, is everlasting,' (so LXX) where the king is referred to as God. If this is taken literally, this psalm would be unique in the entire Bible in explicitly depicting the king as divine (see v.4 and v.18) a notion that existed at times in other ancient Near Eastern cultures but is otherwise absent in biblical thought."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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dizerner
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by dizerner » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:06 pm

How can we say that the writer is 'intentionally referring to Christ as the true "God." ', when Jesus explicitly makes it very clear that He is not when He say in John 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."? Jesus clearly says that there is only one true God and that there is Himself as well.
The Greek word for "and" which is "kai" is far more versatile then the English "and" is used. (That's not me making up a rule to support my view you can easily check this out.) It is possible that it can function also adverbially (i.e., meaning "also," "too," or "even"). In this instance with knowing how subtle Jesus purposefully phrased his teaching (he himself constantly admitted this) I don't think we can dogmatically prove the syntax disproves the possibility that Jesus could include himself as the only true God simply by using "kai." But say I gave it to you that it was a strict conjunction "and"; even though it sounds on the surface like the distinction is an assertion, it actually isn't logically unless you already start out with the assumption that God is one Person rather than one ontological Being (therefore the only true God must necessarily be one Person excluding all others). There is another argument too, that Christ willingly gave up his functioning from the Divine nature (Phil. 2:6). This means Jesus was God in essence still but not in office anymore. Since Jesus gave up the office this means the Trinity has a hierarchy, and explains the Father being greater (not in essence but in office), since Jesus was now a Creator-creation hybrid functioning as a conciliatory bridge between the two.
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21centpilgrim
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:23 pm

Paidion,

6 Your throne, O God, is forever and ever.
The scepter of your kingdom is a scepter of uprightness;
7 you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness.
Therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;

vs6 6 god/elohim is anointed by vs 7 god/elohim, that was where I was coming from
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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steve
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by steve » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:30 pm

Where is 'Yahweh' in ps. 102:25-27?
The Psalm, in Hebrew, doesn't have Yahweh in verses 25-27. The writer of Hebrews quotes it as if it does, because he is quoting (as always) the LXX, which uses kurios—the normal LXX way of translating "Yahweh.".

In the Hebrew of verse 24, the expression "my God" is used for the addressee.

However, the whole Psalm is addressed to Yahweh (cf., v.1). Also, in verse 12, the writer addresses Yahweh and says, "You, Yahweh, will endure forever"—which is the same thought repeated in vv.25-27.

This is, no doubt, why the LXX used Yahweh in verse 25.

Some scholars think the LXX preserve the original text better than does the Masoretic (Hebrew) Text. This would be difficult to determine, but the writer of Hebrews, in choosing this text, and in his choice of the LXX in this citation, means that he (and probably all the Christians of his era) thought that referring to Christ as "Yahweh" was not inappropriate.

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21centpilgrim
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:37 pm

Dizerner,

I have only a few minutes left on lunch but here are some other verses about the only God.

John 5:44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
again from Jesus own lips

1 Tim. 1:17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Here notice that the only God and Jesus are separate and not the same.

Oneness does not equal sameness. Jesus prayed ' that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,'


Jesus is the exact image of the Father, Adam was made in the image of God. Jesus is the second Adam, unique exalted Son, not the second person in a Godhead.

There is no 'God the Son' language in any place in scripture, but there are scores of 'Son of God'.
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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dizerner
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by dizerner » Mon Nov 30, 2015 3:58 pm

21centpilgrim wrote:Dizerner,

I have only a few minutes left on lunch but here are some other verses about the only God.

John 5:44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
again from Jesus own lips

1 Tim. 1:17 To the King of the ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:25 to the only God, our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion, and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen.
Here notice that the only God and Jesus are separate and not the same.

Oneness does not equal sameness. Jesus prayed ' that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one,'


Jesus is the exact image of the Father, Adam was made in the image of God. Jesus is the second Adam, unique exalted Son, not the second person in a Godhead.

There is no 'God the Son' language in any place in scripture, but there are scores of 'Son of God'.
I don't deny your points, I simply point out passages that show Jesus had an uncreated nature, then harmonize them.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

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Paidion
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Re: Heb.1:8?

Post by Paidion » Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:19 pm

Hi Dizerner, you wrote:The Greek word for "and" which is "kai" is far more versatile then the English "and" is used. (That's not me making up a rule to support my view you can easily check this out.) It is possible that it can function also adverbially (i.e., meaning "also," "too," or "even").
I agree that "και" often means "also" as well as "and." I don't agree that it means "too" except where "too" is a synonym for "also". And I believe that it NEVER means "even", though some translators render it so in some contexts where it seems to make sense.

I have a modalist friend who wished to translate "και" as "even" in John 17:3 so that it would read:
And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, even Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
I think this is a grave mistake. Jesus was recognizing his Father as the only true God, not declaring Himself to be the only true God. If He had meant the latter, He wouldn't have addressed "the only true God" as "you." Rather He would have said: "... that they may know ME, the only true God."
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 82.

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