Shema Yisrael

[Paidion]

When later he wrote his introduction to 1 John, he clearly made the point that what was in the beginning was not a "who" he put it this way: "What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we beheld and our hands handled, concerning the word of life"

How can you say this with such certainty? Lexicons give the meaning of ὁς as both "who" and "which". Indeed the King James translation translates the word as "which" 418 times, as "whom" 270 times, as "that" 139 times, as "who" 87 times, and as "whose" 62 times.

"The Word" for John is an "it" not a "he." On one occasion, Jesus is given the name "the word of God" and this is in Revelations 19:13. This name has been given to him after his resurrection and ascension, but we will not find it before his birth.

We find it in John 1:1 before his birth. On what scriptural authority do you claim that Christ was given the name "the word of God" only after his resurrection and ascension? Revelation 19:13, to which you referred does not state this. It simply speaks of "the name by which he is called is The Word of God." Of course, He is called "The Word of God" after his ascension. That doesn't detract from the fact that He was always "The Word of God".

It is not until we come to verse 14 of John's prologue that this logos becomes personal and becomes the son of God, Jesus. "And the Word became flesh."

Certainly the Logos became flesh at the birth of Christ. How does that indicate that He didn't exist as the Logos prior to His birth?

[RND]

Well, yes and no. As you stated Christ = Anointed one and Messiah = Anointed one.

So one can easily say Messiah = Christ, as the both mean the same. One word is Hebrew and the other is Greek for "anointed one." They are essentially the same word but in different languages, would you not agree?

They are indeed two different words in two different languages and mean essentially the same thing, "anointed." Jesus Christ = Yeshua Messiah. Your source that you quoted said that "Christ means Messiah." It does not, it means "anointed." I know I'm being "picky" but these are the facts.

[Michelle]

Well, yes and no. As you stated Christ = Anointed one and Messiah = Anointed one.

So one can easily say Messiah = Christ, as the both mean the same. One word is Hebrew and the other is Greek for "anointed one." They are essentially the same word but in different languages, would you not agree?

They are indeed two different words in two different languages and mean essentially the same thing, "anointed." Jesus Christ = Yeshua Messiah. Your source that you quoted said that "Christ means Messiah." It does not, it means "anointed." I know I'm being "picky" but these are the facts.

You ARE being picky and I don't get why. It's like if he said leche = milch and you admonished him, twice, that no it doesn't, it means milk. All three words refer to the same thing in three different languages. So do christ, messiah, and anointed one. Big deal. What's your point?

[RND]

What's your point?

That Christ doesn't mean Messiah it means "anointed." The words "describe" the same thing, that doesn't "mean" they are the same.

BTW, sorry for high-jacking the thread. My bad.

[Michelle]

What's your point?

That Christ doesn't mean Messiah it means "anointed." The words "describe" the same thing, that doesn't "mean" they are the same.

BTW, sorry for high-jacking the thread. My bad.

So what does Messiah mean that Christ doesn't and vice versa?

And, sorry for prolonging the hijacking

[Pierac]

Your playing games Darin, Why?

Hi Paul, I don’t think Darrin is playing games. I’m actually having a hard time understanding where you’re coming from as well. Please understand, I’m not trying to be critical; I really want to hear what you’re trying to say!! That’s why I’m raising this.

Blessings
SteveF

I understand now. It's difficult to put so much information in a compact post. I will try to refocus my thoughts.

Thanks Paul

[Pierac]

How can you say this with such certainty? Lexicons give the meaning of ὁς as both "who" and "which". Indeed the King James translation translates the word as "which" 418 times, as "whom" 270 times, as "that" 139 times, as "who" 87 times, and as "whose" 62 times.

Why would John refer to Jesus as "What' or a "That" as given in our translations?

(NASB) What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--

(ESV) That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we looked upon and have touched with our hands, concerning the word of life--

Now note the importance here in this verse... It's concerning the word of Life, (with respect to). It is not the word of life! There is a big difference, now go back to Rev 20:4 "I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word (logos) of God."

Notice that they were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus AND for the logos of God. Jesus and the word of God are not the same thing.

The Logos is the plan, Jesus is the plan in action.

We find it in John 1:1 before his birth. On what scriptural authority do you claim that Christ was given the name "the word of God" only after his resurrection and ascension? Revelation 19:13, to which you referred does not state this. It simply speaks of "the name by which he is called is The Word of God." Of course, He is called "The Word of God" after his ascension. That doesn't detract from the fact that He was always "The Word of God".

Too much to cover for this post.

Certainly the Logos became flesh at the birth of Christ. How does that indicate that He didn't exist as the Logos prior to His birth?

Then as what did Jesus exist as before His birth here on earth? Not only this, but Moses spoke nothing of a pre-existant being coming to earth.

Deu 18:15 "The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. 16 "This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, or I will die.' 17 "The LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well. 18 'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.

Let's see if Jesus fit's this description?

Joh 12:49 "For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak.

See any parallels yet?

Joh 5:19 Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

Joh 5:30 "I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

John 8:40 "But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, a man who has told you the truth, which I heard from God; this Abraham did not do.

Heb 5:8 Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

It is tradition that teaches Jesus pre-existed, I know because Jesus learned obedience, and spoke the words he was told to speak? Then add, all the scripture teaching "He was Given", or "Inherited." We are told He is God's Chosen one, and Begotten Son too.

So what scriptures leads you to believe Jesus pre-existed his virgin birth?

[Homer]

Pierac,

You asked:

Why would John refer to Jesus as "What' or a "That" as given in our translations?

1 John 1-4 (New American Standard Bible)

1. What was from the beginning, what we have heard, what we have seen with our eyes, what we have looked at and touched with our hands, concerning the Word of Life--

2. and the life was manifested, and we have seen and testify and proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and was manifested to us--

3. what we have seen and heard we proclaim to you also, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father, and with His Son Jesus Christ.

4. These things we write, so that our joy may be made complete.

Consider that the what of v. 1 was:
from the beginning
heard
seen with their eyes
touched with their hands

How do you explain word that is heard, seen with the eyes, and touched with the hands? Are you thinking John was referring to a book? And if so, what would be noteworthy about having touched a book with their hands?

Huther gives a clear and natural reason fot the use of the neuter in the Greek:

The Apostle points to the Apostolical annunciation, namely the personal Christ, by the neuter because he thinks of Him as "the Word of Life", or "the Life". The reference then being to an abstract (per se) or general idea.......considering that the characteristic import of Christ consists in His being the Life (not only a living individual) and that John, full of this idea, begins this epistle, it was more natural that he should use.... (the neuter)

You also wrote:

Now note the importance here in this verse... It's concerning the word of Life, (with respect to). It is not the word of life! There is a big difference, now go back to Rev 20:4 "I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word (logos) of God."

Notice that they were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus AND for the logos of God. Jesus and the word of God are not the same thing.

This is hardly worth the time to reply, but I will. Surely you must know that the word logos is used in the scriptures in reference to more than one thing. Hint: do a word study on the parable of the sower. Take a look at Mark 7:13. And you might notice that Jesus is referred to by name sometimes.

[darinhouston]

Notice that they were beheaded for their testimony to Jesus AND for the logos of God. Jesus and the word of God are not the same thing.

The Logos is the plan, Jesus is the plan in action.

What difference does it make if you can distinguish in some respects between the logos and the man, Jesus? Scripture plainly tells us that the Word (logos) became flesh and dwelt among us (as Christ). So, even if they might be distinguishable in some abstract way, they shared the same ontological entity while Jesus was on the earth, it seems. In what form the Resurrected Christ takes and whether there was some form of separation of the logos again in the heavenly places, I can't tell you -- my understanding is that the logos changed once and forever when it took personal form as man and remains in a fixed, personal form as a resurrected man in the heavenly places awaiting as we are the final re-creation where He will return and dwell with us forever also in our resurrected bodies.

[Priestly1]

"Sh'ma yisro'el: Yahoweh Elohenu, Yahowah echod!"


"Listen Israel! Jehovah is your God! Jehovah alone!" or "Listen israel! Jehovah your Deity, Jehovah is Unified!"

Echod = A composite unity...a cluster.

Achad = A modan..a unit.

Vowel signs make the difference.....but the Greek is clear. YHVH alone is our God....no one else.


I am a Judeo-Christian. YHVH is a single Divine Being (Gk: Ousia) who is eternally manifested in Three distinct sentient States of existence (Gk: Hypostasois). Persons is a poor translation in English. God is not a supreme Siamese Triplet, nor three supreme identical Twins (a species), nor a supreme being who suffers with multiple personality disorder! YHVH is Three eternal Realities (hypostasies) of a single Divine Being (ousia).

I am a Trinitarian..a Paradox...yes. But not an inconsistancy! The Sun is a Single Object which is the unseen Source, the visible Orb and the invisible Wind. So too YHVH is the eternal Father who is the unseen Source (Arche) of His visible Word (Logos = form and Image) and His invisible Spirit. The Father, His Word and His Spirit are undivided, yet distinct...One God in three eternal conscious states. God is eternally Father because He eternally generates (i.e. begets) His Son the Word.

As the Sun is source, Orb and Wind...so YHVH God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Each are distinct, yet all are One in Being. The Father is the Source of His Word (Son) and His Spirit (Breath). The Father alone has no Source. As you have a Head (e.i. Source) which is united to your Right Hand (i.e. Word) and your Left Hand (i.e. Spirit)...so too YHVH God created and maintains all things with His All Powerful Word and Spirit...so too you create what you will with your hands................neither does anything on its own....yet each is distinct from your head. Yet God's distictions are equal in divine glory, majesty and power.....each is self conscious...yet there is but One Divine Mind and Being.


A Mystery and Paradox does not mean an illogical reality unknown and unknowable.....just nut fully understood in our limited minds...we can only aproximate what has been revealed with human terms and examples...such as the Nicaea-Constantinoplaean Creed (321 - 381 CE).



Merry Christmas!

Rev. Ken

(priestly1@hotmail.com)