Bill Schlegel Videos

Otherness
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:46 pm

Re: Bill Schlegel Videos

Post by Otherness » Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:13 pm

Commonsense

Otherness>>> Rather, the one God, Who truly is the Father of Creation, is known no other way but by His one, and only, Son (the Logos), the Lord Jesus Christ. This transcendent (mysterious) God, Who is always in Heaven, no one but His Son knows (Matthew 11:27). No other “god” is God, not even “the G(g)od” that the Jews (John 8:41) claimed as their father, and certainly none of the gods of the Gentiles. What we have the apostle saying here is that the “Transcendent One,” the true Father, is known only by the “Immanent One,” – He, alone, reveals Who God IS. Yes, He is “other” than the Father, the otherwise unknowable transcendent God, but He is One with Him in Nature, thus to see and know Him is to see and know the Father (the one true God).<<<

commonsense>>>There are other ways to know God. As Paul says, "What may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes are clearly seen and understood by the things that are made."<<<

There is “knowing,” and then there is “KNOWING.” There is “glimpsing,” and then there is “SEEING.” The quality of knowing that Jesus brings spiritually is analogous to “and Adam knew his wife Eve, and she conceived.” This quality of knowing (in Christ) births a new creature that did not (could not) exist before, and in the fulness of time this intimacy was offered to mankind (Matthew 11:11). The Incarnation brought God here to this place we had been exiled to because of disobedience.

Yes, it is possible to “know of God,” but it is impossible to “know Him” until His Presence is “in you.” Again, the Incarnation brought Him into our midst, but it wasn't until Pentecost that mankind knew (experienced) Him (on the inside) as He needs to be known (to be known). This is the kind of knowledge that one must be (re)born into, and it eventually grows to the full maturity described by 1 Corinthians 13:12.

commonsense>>>If He alone reveals who God is, as you say here, then how did those who saw Him, know that He is God. ( Or the voice of God). They must have known God prior to this.<<<

Those who experienced His Personal Presence (e.g., the apostles) “sensed” His uniqueness, but coming to know Him (as God) took some time. Yes, they were expecting the Messiah, but they had to grow in understanding of Who and What He was. Think about Jesus in the manger, well...even He had to “grow into” (the awareness of) Who He really WAS. A mature oak tree bearing seed is the fulness of the acorn, and the Logos producing (the Love that is) the Body of Christ is the fulness of the Logos.

commonsense>>>It is evident in the Old Testament that there were people who knew God. Paul even says, “Although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God but became futile in their thoughts and their foolish minds were darkened<<<

There were a few particular individuals who, for God's own creative agenda, knew Him in a “special” way. However, as Jesus said, among men born of women there has not been a greater than John the Baptist, but the least one in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.

Otherness>>> The real problem here for non-trinitarians is that there is only One I AM Who is GOD.<<<

commonsense>>>It's not a problem for me. I think the problem lies on the Trinitarian's side with explaining how there are 3 Gods, but there's only one God. The way I see it, there's one God and there are those who are one with God in the Spirit, or spiritually united with God. I think this is what the New Testament writers are saying.<<<

What happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object? In our case here the irresistible force is, for Trinitarians, the “obvious” data of Scripture concerning the trinitarian formulation of the Godhead, and the immovable object is (the) human intuition (for example) that the concept “1” and the concept “3” cannot identify the same “thing” in the same place at the same time. This (kind of) human intuition is built into our ontology as natural, material, physical entities : it is inherently the default state of our reasoning process. But...something has been happening in the depth of our ontological makeup in the last one hundred years. That “thing” is Quantum Theory and it is forcing the human minds that are on the forefront of (this kind of) knowledge to “let go” of these intuitions.

As I said earlier : >>>The picture of the nature of reality that has been put together (by science) in the last one hundred years is so counter-intuitive that some of its brightest lights have described it as “magical” (John Wheeler) and “absurd” (Richard Feynman). More prosaically put, “quantum mechanics is the first theory in human history that violates the basic a priori principles that have shaped human thought since immemorial times.” (Miguel Ferrero, David Salgado, José Luís Sánchez-Gómez. QUANTUM MECHANICS AND MAGIC: AN OPEN DISCUSSION. 2014).<<<

For instance, quantum superposition posits that “a (quantum) thing” can exist in (much) more than one state simultaneously. It only “reduces” to one state when the larger system in which it is embedded acts upon (interacts with) it. In other words, at the most fundamental level of nature (that we have accessed) the natural intuitions of our cognitive processes are inadequate to deal with what is being experienced. We must “let go” of our naturalistic, materialistic (carnal?) intuitions about the nature of (everyday) reality in order to become “open” to what is really going on in its depths...if we are ever to really truly “understand” even superficial phenomena – which the human race (collectively) obviously does not!

You're comment here that trinitarians must explain “how there are 3 Gods, but there's only one God” fundamentally mischaracterizes the concept that was painstakenly formulated from the scriptural data. That is, there is ONE GOD Who exists as Father, as Son, as Holy Spirit.

In today's (metaphysical) vernacular it goes like this : there is a locus of Consciousness Who is The Father, there is a locus of Consciousness Who is the Son, and there is a locus of Consciousness Who is the Holy Spirit. This is Who and What I AM self-willfully IS in His desire to create that particular REALITY that pleases Him : the REALITY of THE BODY OF CHRIST. The Father / Son dynamic of His Being sets the Alpha and Omega of this truly “other” (truly ontologically other) REALITY to which He is committed. In identifying as Father / as Son He does not cease to be simply I AM : Holy Spirit. There are not 3 Gods, rather God is a (multidimensional) Spirit self-willfully existing in a State of Being that is the cause of a Creation that yields the fruit of the BODY OF CHRIST.

As I have said, and as we all should expect, the (truth about the makeup of the)) Natural World is destined to glorify God, for even “the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands (Isaiah 55:12).

Koinonia

commonsense
Posts: 183
Joined: Tue Mar 02, 2021 11:25 pm

Re: Bill Schlegel Videos

Post by commonsense » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:54 pm

Otherness wrote:
Sat Jul 17, 2021 10:13 pm
Yes, it is possible to “know of God,” but it is impossible to “know Him” until His Presence is “in you.” Again, the Incarnation brought Him into our midst, but it wasn't until Pentecost that mankind knew (experienced) Him (on the inside) as He needs to be known (to be known). This is the kind of knowledge that one must be (re)born into, and it eventually grows to the full maturity described by 1 Corinthians 13:12.
Otherness, I see the original sin theory coming through in some of your posts. I don't believe in it, so we are on a different page.

I agree that God's Presence must be in you, but this was happening before Pentecost. As Samuel says: David was anointed king because of his heart. "For man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart." "And the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward."

"The word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you should obey it."

"Seek the Lord with all your heart, mind and soul and you shall find Him."

God didn't exile us to this place because of disobedience. He made the earth as a home for all His creatures, including mankind. And he instructs us to "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it."

Otherness
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:46 pm

Re: Bill Schlegel Videos

Post by Otherness » Fri Jul 23, 2021 1:04 pm

commonsense>>>Otherness, I see the original sin theory coming through in some of your posts. I don't believe in it, so we are on a different page.<<<

Please elaborate on this important issue. What is the origin, the source, the beginning, of sin in the human experience? What is it about the “original sin” concept that you find fault with?

commonsense>>>I agree that God's Presence must be in you, but this was happening before Pentecost. As Samuel says: David was anointed king because of his heart. "For man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart." "And the Spirit of the Lord came upon David from that day forward."<<<

What is it, then, that Jesus was communicating when He said “among men born of women there has not been a greater than John the Baptist, but the least one in the Kingdom of Heaven is greater than he.” Being that John was His contemporary He was certainly lumping “everyone else” (who lived prior to John) in there. John's ministry was the culmination of the Law and the Prophets, and something Better was now Present. Yes, “the Law and the Prophets” remain, but only as witnesses to this Better Way : their purpose now is to just “get in your face” when you turn it away from Jesus. In other words, to help you keep your eyes fixed on Him, just as it was always their ministry to keep, or turn back, the face of the people toward God.

This “more excellent WAY” is a love relationship, a natural affection, between a Person and a person. It is this (love) that moves you to labor to change (to enter into the rest that is His experience of being) : it is a labor of love.

commonsense>>>"The word is very near you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you should obey it."<<<

Yes, obedience is at the heart of our life with God because disobedience is at the heart of the loss of our life with God. However it isn't just a semantic game to say it this way : God did not give us His word that we should obey it, but that WE SHOULD OBEY HIM (for the letter kills but the Spirit gives life). The difference is a (very) subtle one, but it will keep the believer from becoming a cult unto himself.

commonsense>>>"Seek the Lord with all your heart, mind and soul and you shall find Him."<<<

Yes, this is the only way to find HIM.

commonsense>>>God didn't exile us to this place because of disobedience. He made the earth as a home for all His creatures, including mankind. And he instructs us to "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth and subdue it.<<<

The world outside (the Garden of) His Presence is a place of exile, and here we have no permanent home (2 Corinthians 5:6-8). Humanity was exiled from the Garden because of disobedience, and in like manner Israel was exiled from the Promised Land for disobedience. God incarnated into this place of exile and made Himself “a home away from home” for us. It is our abiding in Him that changes us from glory to glory (2 Corinthians 3:18), even unto that ultimate change (1 Corinthians 15:52).

Maranatha

Seeker
Posts: 22
Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2014 11:47 pm

Re:

Post by Seeker » Sat Jul 24, 2021 7:12 pm

steve wrote:
Wed Jun 16, 2021 3:55 pm
The trinity doctrine is not threatened in any way by statements of distinction between Jesus and His Father. In fact, it is written into every formulation of the doctrine (I do not endorse any particular formulation) that this is exactly what we would expect the Bible to say.
I’m disappointed that on both this forum and recently on his show that Steve attacks a straw man. Unitarians do not believe that the trinity doctrine is threatened by statements of distinction between Jesus and the Father, but rather statements of distinction between Jesus and God.

Steve typically is very sharp and his points very relevant to the discussion at hand. One has to wonder then why on this topic he continues to resort to the Jesus/Father distinctions, which are irrelevant to the debate on the trinity, rather than the Jesus/God distinctions that are very relevant to it.

Otherness
Posts: 31
Joined: Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:46 pm

Re: Bill Schlegel Videos

Post by Otherness » Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:21 pm

There is an absolute (ontological) separation (distinction) between God and His Creation – between Uncreated Being and created being – a “bottomless nothingness” (an abyss) exists between Creator and created. Our created reality is “suspended” in (over) this abyss, and when the Son incarnated He clothed His (naked) I AM in (with) the reality of this distinction. So, of course, we see the “evidence” of this in the documented history of His life here with us. These Jesus / God distinctions are relevant to the Trinity only in that they bear (further) witness of the sacrificial, self-denying, love of the Son for the Father (God), and for Creation. He actually did live life as (though He were merely) a human being, so...again, we will see the distinction of humanity vis-a-vis God evidenced in His real human experience with us. He made Himself “distinct from God (His Divinity)” for a while so that He might make possible the creation of a new creature capable of returning that Love that, alone, moves freely in the midst of, and across all, “distinctions.” The better we understand what God has done for us in Jesus...well, we literally have nothing left but gratitude.

Thank you Jesus!

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