Worship of Jesus in NT

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2705
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Worship of Jesus in NT

Post by Homer » Sun Feb 21, 2021 9:44 pm

Darin wrote:
This is hard for moderns, but if a king or pharaoh had a son and he gave the signet ring to him and sent him into the land, people would rightly bow down and pay honor to that prince - but, it was derivative, and the real object was the authority of the pharoah/king that was being worshipped. If someone explicitly were to say the prince was a part of a ruling "pair" and not recognize this as derivative, that person likely would be put to death (and likely the prince for encouraging or permitting it). So, this is shaky ground, I think.
I understand your argument regarding certain things being derivative but that argument only goes so far. Consider the following:

Numbers 21:4-9

4. Then they set out from Mount Hor by the way of the Red Sea, to go around the land of Edom; and the people became impatient because of the journey. 5. So the people spoke against God (Elohim) and Moses: “Why have you brought us up from Egypt to die in the wilderness? For there is no food and no water, and we are disgusted with this miserable food.” 6. Then the Lord (YHWH) sent fiery serpents among the people and they bit the people, so that many people of Israel died. 7. So the people came to Moses and said, “We have sinned, because we have spoken against the Lord (YHWH) and against you; intercede with the Lord (YHWH), that He will remove the serpents from us.” And Moses interceded for the people. 8. Then the Lord (YHWH) said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and put it on a flag pole; and it shall come about, that everyone who is bitten, and looks at it, will live.” 9. So Moses made a bronze serpent and put it on the flag pole; and it came about, that if a serpent bit someone, and he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.


In Numbers we are informed That Jehovah was offended. In 1 Corinthians we are informed by Paul it was Christ:

1 Corinthians 10:9
New American Standard Bible
9. Nor are we to put the Lord (Christos) to the test, as some of them did, and were killed by the snakes.


How is this to be explained? In the OT story God is offended. Paul says the offense was against Christ. He had just informed the Corinthians that Christ was the "rock" that followed the Israelites in the desert. Easily explained by the Trinitarian; I don't see how the Unitarian can explain it.

dwight92070
Posts: 647
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Worship of Jesus in NT

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 12:22 am

Excellent point Homer. It is clear in the New Testament that Jesus is Lord. We also know that the Father is Lord, called the Lord God many times. Yet Paul tells us that there is one Lord. Isaiah also tells us in several places that the Father is Lord. Yet here we see again the Lord Jesus is equated with the Father.

Jesus is also the King. He told Pilate that His kingdom was not of this world, admitting that He was a King. In Revelation 19:11-16, we see Jesus on a white horse, clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called the Word of God. Verse 16 says that on His robe and on His thigh, He has a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Yet Paul tells us in 1 Timothy 1:17 that the King is ETERNAL, immortal, invisible, the ONLY GOD. So King Jesus is ETERNAL, He had no beginning, and He is the ONLY GOD. Yet we know that the Father and the Holy Spirit are also called God.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel AND HIS REDEEMER, THE LORD OF HOSTS; I am the first and the last, and there is no God besides Me.
It appears that two persons are speaking here - The Lord and His redeemer. The Father and the Son. Yet the two speak as if they are one - I am the first and the last, and there is no God besides Me. Obviously Jesus is our redeemer. Also Jesus tells us in Revelation that He is the first and the last, yet here the Father says the same thing.

Early Christians might have some interesting things to say, but we cannot base our doctrines on what they believed. Again, we have to base our doctrines on what the Bible says. Again, creeds are interesting, but if they don't agree with the Bible, then they're not helpful. The same is true of commentaries - interesting, but only helpful if they accurately interpret the Bible.

Dwight

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 5065
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Worship of Jesus in NT

Post by Paidion » Mon Feb 22, 2021 4:22 pm

When you read about the LORD God in the Old Testament, the word translated as "LORD" is "Yahweh". That is God's name.

In the New Testament does not seem to be a word for "Yahweh", or more likely it was considered to be too sacred to be uttered or written, and so the word "κυριος" ("kurios"in English characters) is used in its place. For example in Luke 1:68:

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he has visited and redeemed his people.

The Greek word "κυριος" is used here. That word does NOT mean "Yahweh" but means "lord" in the sense of "master".
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

dwight92070
Posts: 647
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Worship of Jesus in NT

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:22 pm

Titus 2:13 "... looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, ..."

Whose appearing are we hoping for? None other than "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus". He is the One who promised that He would come back. We are not told that the Father will be coming to the earth. Yet Jesus is called "our great God".

dwight92070
Posts: 647
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Worship of Jesus in NT

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:49 pm

If Paul didn't want us to mistakenly believe that Jesus is actually God, he certainly could have made his statements much more precise. But over and over again, he seems to lump the two together - that is Jesus and God. He seems totally unconcerned that anyone might possibly get the message that Jesus is God. 2 Thessalonians 1:1-2, 12; 2:16; 1 Thessalonians 1:1,3,14; 3:11; 1 Timothy 1:1-2; 1 Timothy 2:16 and the list goes on.

dwight92070
Posts: 647
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Worship of Jesus in NT

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:40 am

1 Timothy 6:15

"... which He will bring about at the proper time - He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, ..."

Both "He's" here seem to be referring to the Father. If that is true, then we have Paul here calling the Father the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. But we know that that is the title given to Jesus in Revelation.

If the two "He's" refer to Jesus, then we have Paul calling Jesus the blessed and only Sovereign. But we know that the Father is the only Sovereign.

Either way, Jesus and the Father are one and the same.

dwight92070
Posts: 647
Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2011 12:09 am

Re: Worship of Jesus in NT

Post by dwight92070 » Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:58 am

No surprise because Jesus said "I and the Father are one". John 10:30 Immediately they picked up stones to stone Him. In verse 38, Jesus said, " ... know and understand that the Father is in Me and I in the Father. Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him and He eluded their grasp." They told Him that they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy "and because, You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Jesus told Philip, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." If anyone saw Jesus, they saw God.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 2276
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Worship of Jesus in NT

Post by darinhouston » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:44 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Mon Feb 22, 2021 11:22 pm
Titus 2:13 "... looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, ..."

Whose appearing are we hoping for? None other than "our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus". He is the One who promised that He would come back. We are not told that the Father will be coming to the earth. Yet Jesus is called "our great God".
If Paul didn't want us to mistakenly believe that Jesus is actually God, he certainly could have made his statements much more precise. But over and over again, he seems to lump the two together - that is Jesus and God. He seems totally unconcerned that anyone might possibly get the message that Jesus is God. 2 Thessalonians 1:1-2, 12; 2:16; 1 Thessalonians 1:1,3,14; 3:11; 1 Timothy 1:1-2; 1 Timothy 2:16 and the list goes on.
This fails to appreciate that perhaps Paul didn't have the same assumptions on use of the term God as you seem to and felt no need to do so for that reason. It is virtually unanimous within scholarship that the term god had a broader usage than Trinitarian proof-testers ascribe to it. Moses as but one example was called god in various contexts.

Furthermore, there are translation differences and interpretation issues in Titus 2:13. Even in the translation you provided, it is not God that appears but the "glory of our great God" along with our Savior, Christ Jesus. It can be interpreted as Jesus' appearing being the way the glory of our great God is shown. Matt 16:27 tells us "For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory." This is consistent with that passage and others like it.

Interpretation of Titus 2:13 and whether the reference to God and Jesus are one and the same are subject of considerable debate in Greek grammar circles today as it raises the so-called "Granville Sharp" rule of grammar which is very questionable and modern. There is a lot you can read on that debate, but as it pertains to this passage consider this summary... "https://www.jesuswordsonly.com/books/51 ... -rule.html"

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 2276
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Worship of Jesus in NT

Post by darinhouston » Tue Feb 23, 2021 10:52 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:40 am
1 Timothy 6:15

"... which He will bring about at the proper time - He who is the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of Kings and Lord of Lords, ..."

Both "He's" here seem to be referring to the Father. If that is true, then we have Paul here calling the Father the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. But we know that that is the title given to Jesus in Revelation.

If the two "He's" refer to Jesus, then we have Paul calling Jesus the blessed and only Sovereign. But we know that the Father is the only Sovereign.

Either way, Jesus and the Father are one and the same.
Well, if Jesus and the Father are in fact one and the same, there is no Trinity. That is directly contrary to any of the various Trinitarian views (and there are a lot of them). But, none of them hold that they are the same unless you consider modalism a version of the Trinity.

There is a lot more to say on this verse, but suffice it to say that this is not a divine title - it is a well-regarded expression/figure of speech and does not imply what you infer. Just a few examples where others are called "king of kings" -- Ezra 7:12 (Artaxerxes); Ezekiel 26:7 (Nebuchadnezzer); Daniel 2:37 (Nebuchadnezzer).

BTW, I'm happy to engage these verses here as it is a good refresher for me to consider things I might not have previously and others might not have considered them -- but, you might try a few google searches for these passages before just posting them as slam dunk prooftexts -- most of them have well worn discourses with quite a few non-trinitarian responses. If you do that and disagree with their responses, that's cool - if there are reasons worthy of debate beyond simply not being persuaded, they might be interesting to debate here. I hope I don't seem rude and don't mean to shut you down at all - I just want you to know there are quite a few answers to these if you look and really wonder what non-trinitarians think about them.

User avatar
darinhouston
Posts: 2276
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Worship of Jesus in NT

Post by darinhouston » Tue Feb 23, 2021 11:04 am

dwight92070 wrote:
Tue Feb 23, 2021 12:58 am
No surprise because Jesus said "I and the Father are one". John 10:30 Immediately they picked up stones to stone Him. In verse 38, Jesus said, " ... know and understand that the Father is in Me and I in the Father. Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him and He eluded their grasp." They told Him that they wanted to stone Him for blasphemy "and because, You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."

Jesus told Philip, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father." If anyone saw Jesus, they saw God.
There is a lot to say about this, including the translation difference between "make yourself out to be God" (as in Yahweh, the God of our fathers, creator of the universe) and "make yourself out to be a god," (having some divine authority like or above Moses as opposed to being a mere man) but also --- have you considered how this interacts with John 17:21 ? Are you God? Are you going to be God some day? Jesus prays that we be one just as he is in the father and the father is in him. That we are likewise to be in "them". This should give us some clue in how this language was understood at the time even by Jesus Himself. A mystical union perhaps - a like mind for sure -- but, not equating to being the same person.

...that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

As to Philip, he is the exact image of the God - of course, when you see the image bearer you see the original in a sense -- that's the point of the image bearer. But, he didn't say "I am the Father" and -- again -- Trinitarianism doesn't allow for that.

Post Reply

Return to “The Trinity”