another bad trinitarian argument?

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21centpilgrim
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another bad trinitarian argument?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Sun May 05, 2019 11:11 am

I hear Trinitarians try to make 'the spirit of God hovering over the face of the waters'- Gen 1:2 tie into the baptism of Jesus and the 'spirit of God descending like a dove and resting upon him'.

Seems like a blatant reach trying to read into the text but is this a compelling argument on any level?
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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steve
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Re: another bad trinitarian argument?

Post by steve » Sun May 05, 2019 5:13 pm

If I heard someone say that, I would not assume that he was making an argument for the trinity. It sounds more like a sermon illustration.

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Paidion
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Re: another bad trinitarian argument?

Post by Paidion » Sun May 05, 2019 8:11 pm

Though I am no longer a Trinitarian, if I were one, I would use the very first verse of the Hebrew Bible for support.

In the beginning,אלהים created the heavens and the earth.

אלהים transliterated is "elohiym" which is a plural word. Does this not imply that if the word is translated as "God" then "God" in this context is a plural word, and thus "God" is comprised of a plurality of Individuals?
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MMathis
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Re: another bad trinitarian argument?

Post by MMathis » Mon May 06, 2019 1:17 pm

I grew up with the understanding of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

I've never heard a very good explanation of what those other two are if they're not "in the loop".

Usually when someone tries to disprove something, it is because what they are trying to disprove is a threat to their own belief.
What I don't get, is what the Trinity threatens.
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Paidion
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Re: another bad trinitarian argument?

Post by Paidion » Mon May 06, 2019 4:20 pm

I don't think anyone sees "The Trinity" (if it exists) as a threat. I didn't change my mind about it because I saw it as a threat. I changed my mind about it for two reasons.

1. I see no Biblical evidence that the Spirit of God is a divine Person who is Someone other than the Father and the Son. Today, some people pray to the Holy Spirit, or sing, "Come Holy Spirit, I need Thee!" But can you find a single Biblical verse in which anyone prayed to the Holy Spirit?
I suggest that the Holy Spirit is the very Person(s) of the Father and/or the Son extended into the mind and heart of God's people.

2. Concerning the Son of God, the early Christians (for example Ignatius and Justin Martyr) believed that God begat His Son before all ages as His first act. According to the letter to the Magnesians (ascribed to Ignatius born about A.D. 30), "Christ was begotten by the Father before all ages, but was afterwards born of the virgin, Mary."

Justin Martyr (born about A.D 110), in his dialogue with the Jewish man Trypho and his companions (a dialogue that lasted several days) Justin compared the begetting of Son to a small fire started from a large fire. The small fire is of the same essence as the large fire, and yet is a distinct from it .
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darinhouston
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Re: another bad trinitarian argument?

Post by darinhouston » Tue May 07, 2019 7:31 pm

I have heard this correlated more with the Spirit of God coming upon Mary when Jesus was conceived. (as in a second creation)

As to the Trinity being a "threat," I think you have that backwards. Since trinitarianism seems to be the default orthodox position, it is more likely that the non-trinitarian positions are a threat to Trinitarians. For most trinitarians, it is merely a matter of discerning truth. For Trinitarians, it seems to be a matter of holding fast to tradition. Alternative explanations are always a threat to tradition. In contrast, those who posit alternative arguments are seldom threatened by other alternatives.

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steve
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Re: another bad trinitarian argument?

Post by steve » Tue May 07, 2019 9:02 pm

I have never found non-trinitarian arguments to be threatening—only unpersuasive.

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Paidion
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Re: another bad trinitarian argument?

Post by Paidion » Thu May 09, 2019 7:48 pm

Similarly for myself—only the other way around. Since I became a non-Trinitarian, I have never found Trinitarian arguments a threat—only unpersuasive.
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21centpilgrim
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Re: another bad trinitarian argument?

Post by 21centpilgrim » Sat May 11, 2019 1:26 pm

The initial argument was made during a lecture by popular- recently at least- English Trinitarian writer and speaker- Michael Reeves

Once I started re-examining the Trinity instead of the assumption I just granted it for over 20+ years, I have found it very lacking
Then those who feared the LORD spoke with each other, and the LORD listened to what they said. In his presence, a scroll of remembrance was written to record the names of those who feared him and loved to think about him.

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