The ancient understanding of Rememberance

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Jim
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The ancient understanding of Rememberance

Post by Jim » Thu Oct 04, 2012 8:25 pm

Which path do you take concerning the understanding of Rememberance, Via Moderna (modern way) or Via Antiqua (ancient way)?

The modern way, which emerged during the time of the enlightenment and reformation is to Remember something by recalling an event, a simple memorial.

The Ancient way, that which the Jews of the OT and those in the NT, when it came to feasts, was to Remember not just by recalling something but to actually participate in what was being Remembered in the feast. The ancient world of the Apostles viewed time also different then we do today. Sure time passed, but there were Days of the Lord, feast days, in which those days the people would Worship in such a way and feast in such a way that the event was not just a recollection of passed events, but was to partake in the very event that was being recalled. The ancient way means for example, when the Jews ate the passover lamb they were not just remembering it in the modern way, but became participants in the very first passover. This, by the Apostles and Christ Himself and the Church Fathers who came afterwards lead to the view of the Eucharist, being a central part of the Worship of the Church, it was and still is viewed as taken part in the once for all sacrifice in a feast, with bread as the symbol of the Lamb of God and the wine being His Blood (1 Cor 10), but the kicker is that it also meant that to partake in the service was to actually partake of the sacrifice of Christ, to truly receive the Body and Blood of the Lord in the Heavenly offering of Christ Himself. This is also why the Church has had the view of Worship not being here, but more important being in Heaven before the Lords Table with Christ truly leading the Liturgy.

I came from the modern way, but I have switched camps some time ago. Which do believe to be valid? Do you believe that the Apostles traditioned the Ancient way or the modern way?
Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

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backwoodsman
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Re: The ancient understanding of Rememberance

Post by backwoodsman » Fri Oct 05, 2012 7:27 pm

Jim, could you give us some Scriptures that support the "ancient way" as you describe it? That might provide a little more clarity, and a basis for some discussion.

Jim
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Re: The ancient understanding of Rememberance

Post by Jim » Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:40 pm

backwoodsman wrote:Jim, could you give us some Scriptures that support the "ancient way" as you describe it? That might provide a little more clarity, and a basis for some discussion.
Scripture would be nice, but do you agree that to understand the scriptures a person must put it in its full context?

Here is some excerpts from some writings....

First one:

The Twofold Character of Liturgical Recollection

The cultic representation of the foundational events in the Sacred History of the Jewish people has a twofold nature; it is both subjective and objective. Subjectively the ritual actions produce an interior psychological state which allows the worshiper to experience the saving events on a personal and interpersonal level. Objectively the events are exhibited in God's eternal remembrance, and thus are rendered present as a living reality. The worshiper's subjective state is ultimately dependent upon, and is caused by, the objective element which has its source in the memory of God; because when God remembers an event of the past it can rightly be conceived of as eternally present.

An example of this concept can be seen by looking at Psalm 111:4, which reads: "He has caused his wonderful works to be remembered" [RSV Bible]. As Artur Weiser points out, when God causes something to be remembered it should not be seen as a "purely spiritual act of recollecting but, as is evident from Psalm 111..., [it must be seen as] the actualization of an historical tradition in a ritual act" [Weiser, 36]. One of the best illustrations of this idea of re-living the Sacred Actions of God, which is still in use today, can be seen in the Jewish celebration of the Passover. In the Seder meal all of the prayers and readings of the ritual are recited in the present tense, and as Jewish scholar Yosef Yerushalmi explained, this fact is important because, "Both the language and the gesture [of the Seder service] are geared to spur, not so much a leap of memory as a fusion of past and present.

Memory here is no longer recollection, which still preserves a sense of distance, but reactualization" [Yerushalmi, 44]. That is why the Rabbis of the Mishnah said, that, "In every generation a man must so regard himself as if he himself came out of Egypt, for it is written, 'And thou shalt tell thy son in that day saying, it is because of that which the Lord did for me when I came forth out of Egypt (Exodus 13:8, emphasis added)'" [Mishnah, 151]. This quote expresses the ancient idea that by remembering the mighty acts of God in the liturgy, they become truly present for those participating in the worship of the community, and so the Rabbis went on to say in the Mishnah, that (. . . we are bound to give thanks, to praise, to glorify, to honour, to exalt, and to bless Him who wrought all these wonders for our fathers and for us. He brought us out of bondage to freedom, from sorrow to gladness, and from mourning to a Festival-day, and from darkness to light, and from servitude to redemption, so let us say before Him the Hallelujah( (emphasis added) [Mishnah, 151].

http://www.philvaz.com/apologetics/p39.htm

And a second one from a Jewish site:

Reliving Revelation

According to the Ramban, the Tabernacle, and, after it, the Temple in Jerusalem, was meant to offer the people the opportunity to experience, again and again, the defining moment of Jewish history; the revelation at Sinai. This was achieved through ritual; the physical experience of the Sanctuary, the vessels, the Priests, the Levites, the sacrifices, all came together to create for the devotee the 'ultimate' experience, the experience of Sinai, the presence of God. These ritual objects and acts are the means, not the ends, with which one could relive the most important moment in our collective consciousness.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/texts/B ... fman.shtml


So, you see, I need to establish the actual historical social context of what was believed to occur in Worship. Without the proper context it would be pointless to start verse bombing.

I can say though, through the Liturgical services, vespers, mantins, Divine Liturgy, etc., it is said that we don't just read and declare the truths, but actually experience those truths and events through the rituals within Worship of the Church. It is this actual experience that rememberance occurs, not just to recollect, but to remember by experiencing the events.
Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

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backwoodsman
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Re: The ancient understanding of Rememberance

Post by backwoodsman » Sat Oct 06, 2012 2:32 pm

Jim wrote:Scripture would be nice, but do you agree that to understand the scriptures a person must put it in its full context?
Certainly, but if we don't start with Scripture, we're not likely to get closer to it as we go along; and after all, getting closer to Scripture is the goal here, right? I've found that some get so enamored with the context on some issue, that they forget the Bible. Maybe others will be interested in discussing these other writings with you; in the meantime, let us know if you'd like to discuss it in light of Scripture.

Jim
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Re: The ancient understanding of Rememberance

Post by Jim » Sat Oct 06, 2012 3:24 pm

backwoodsman wrote:
Jim wrote:Scripture would be nice, but do you agree that to understand the scriptures a person must put it in its full context?
Certainly, but if we don't start with Scripture, we're not likely to get closer to it as we go along; and after all, getting closer to Scripture is the goal here, right? I've found that some get so enamored with the context on some issue, that they forget the Bible. Maybe others will be interested in discussing these other writings with you; in the meantime, let us know if you'd like to discuss it in light of Scripture.
I don't play Sola Scripture game anymore, and what I hold to is Holy Tradition with scripture holding primacy within Holy Tradition, but not without the whole witness of the experience of God.
Remembering our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commit ourselves and one another and our whole life to Christ our God.

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