The Church Service

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jriccitelli
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Re: The Church Service

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:01 am

In my first post I said this;
Prior to the invention of the steam engine and automobile most people did not travel much further than they could walk or horseback so communities were small and most all the people of a community knew each other 'before' they went to church, nowadays nobody knows anyone unless they purposely are introduced.
I am all for rural, but Santa Clara County here has 1.8 million, there are over 350 church buildings, and my old church is less than 1 mile as is my current church. I shouldn’t 'have' to drive very far to find Christian fellowship on a Sunday, but there is practically none to find, and on a Sunday morning no less. A lot of my friends are sitting in a service somewhere, so I often will find someone outside who I talk to for an hour. These hours have often been the very best and most friendship enlightening conversations I have ever had with these people. I think, what if the whole church could talk to one another?
(Also, I take seriously Jesus words to love our ‘neighbor', my neighbor does not live across town. I think it very important to build relationships in your own neighborhood, with people you can visit often)
People say, “Well you should just go to a different church” that is not my point, I am not talking about my ‘own’ benefit, I am concerned about the health of the Church at large. When I was in a Mormon Church I didn’t just leave, I spent two years or more within, trying to show them truth. This is a theological and salvation issue also. (below some points from my first posts on this...)
80% of people never participate in group fellowship, instead they hastily make it to 'service' then hurry back home, week after week until the effects of non-fellowship (and not being a real part of the body) has its consequences, resulting in spiritual underdevelopment and or disinterest in church and God.
The real Church has walked away from the bible study group that includes prayer, bible study, open discussion and fellowship into another room
This is the problem, if the congregation would return to the small group and make the smaller group the focus and priority then we could 'occasionally consider' that we are capable of meeting with a larger body without again becoming entrapped into the idea that; the un-intimate giant meeting, where listening to one speaker week after week is all we need. As 'pastors' and teachers 'we' should be on guard against our human inclination to assemble around leaders instead of His Spirit.
It is my job as a shepherd, or whatever, to teach followers of Christ to learn that 'they' are His body, that 'they' are the ecclesia, that 'they' are his building, that 'they' can worship Him together when only two or ten are gathered, that they can talk about Him together without a pastor (or a video) being present, that they can serve, witness, baptize, commune, break bread and wine together when only three or eight are gathered! How blasphemous this is to some people just astonishes me. It has been carried over from Catholicism, and Protestantism has had a hard time taking off the robes of the clergy and remembering that the church is two or five gathered together. (whew)

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Michelle
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Re: The Church Service

Post by Michelle » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:18 am

JR, I really feel for you! You've tried moving the pastor, but that doesn't seem to be working. What else have you tried? Could you start a before or after church gathering for fellowship? Perhaps it would start small, and take a while to build, but maybe it would eventually attract some of those rush-in-and-outers if they saw the depth of bond you create.

My most recent experience is very much opposite of yours. On Sundays we spend about four hours at church. There's lots of talking, lots of praying, lots of worshipping God. We share a meal every week because it's part of church. In fact, when I have to rush off without eating because I need to tend to my aging parents, I'm often gently rebuked for leaving early. But, then, my church is mostly made up of immigrants from a culture that emphasizes community, communal meals, and sharing life. Americans usually don't value those things as highly, I'm afraid.

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jriccitelli
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Re: The Church Service

Post by jriccitelli » Sun Sep 01, 2013 11:42 am

Here it is Sunday morning again, I would love to go to church and see some friends chat, talk about something besides baseball and work. I know most my Christian friends are getting ready to go sit through a service for two hours, but I don’t want to listen to one guy ramble on for an hour about relationship building (this was a sermon series). I have looked through the local church bulletins online and there are only about 4 Sunday morning groups or bible studies in the area. One is KJV only (says so online), one Presbyterian, one overtly into prophesy…

Heaven saved, while writing my friend called back from the small home church fifteen miles away, and already this morning me him had an interesting revelation talking together about Psalms, and David lifting his hands up in prayer. And we have another couple going with us, so for today I’m saved from the pew, phew…

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Bud
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Re: The Church Service

Post by Bud » Sun Sep 01, 2013 12:27 pm

Sounds Good JR :) . Praise God! Bud,
Malachi 3:16 Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard [it,] and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name. (NASB) :)

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Michelle
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Re: The Church Service

Post by Michelle » Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:30 pm

Heaven saved, while writing my friend called back from the small home church fifteen miles away, and already this morning me him had an interesting revelation talking together about Psalms, and David lifting his hands up in prayer. And we have another couple going with us, so for today I’m saved from the pew, phew…
I dunno, JR, your whole post changed and you sound so excited about this small home church. Is fifteen miles really such a distance?

I'm curious about the revelation you (or the other guy) had while talking about Psalms and David lifting his hands up in prayer. Care to share?

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jriccitelli
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Re: The Church Service

Post by jriccitelli » Mon Sep 02, 2013 9:52 am

Maybe it wasn't Davids psalm, but my friend mentioned he was reading psalm 141 where it says “Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice” and it made me think of Jesus lifting His hands out on the cross, so I asked him if he ever thought of it in that sense, since Jesus was offered up in the evening (or afternoon). Either way I didn’t mean a ‘revelation’ really, just a pondering of sorts.
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I have been hoping (first of all) that my own pastor would see the light concerning interaction, (second) I was hoping I could find some fellowship locally, the third option was to go to 15 mile away group.

We ‘should’ be able to find Christian fellowship in our own neighborhoods, this shouldn’t be this difficult. I have often heard someone say “I go to this great church, across town”: If you’re a new believer go 200 miles to find truth, great, it is worth it, but someone should be able to say ‘Hey I know of a good church in your area, you would be happier if you knew people in your own area who you can befriend (and just as importantly, disciple you)’.
It is so important to have consistent ongoing relationships with Christians you can ‘visit’ on a ‘regular’ basis. So many people do not have a network of close Christian friends they can visit with. Some can do whatever they like (and some do) – but as a caring person who has witnessed so many divorces, troubled relationships, bad dating decisions, drug problems, drinking problems, lonely people, among Christians – the greatest help and solution and prevention I see in life is the net of good relationships, and by that I mean good Christian relationships.
Jesus said “I will make you fishers of men” fishermen use nets. I think it is no coincidence to think a network is what catches and keeps us together. I believe friendship is not a derivative of evangelism, discipleship and Church - it is the goal.

People might say, “Well I have Christian friends” That's great, now you can help people who don’t. When I have a small group it is my main interest that the group build friendships with one another, even at my expense. My first counsel to any Christian I meet or with whom I am concerned would be; Are you in a small group? Then; Do you have a good friend who is a Christian? Then; Do you have someone you can disciple, or do you have someone discipling you?
The last one seems to cast the most concern, because the term seems to have but disappeared in Christianity, why? I have a few theories, but for someone like me who came to understand the Bible just by reading the Bible, Jesus seems to have put an emphasis on disciples, and going and making disciples.
This gets back to my theory of teaching, which is what I would think is known by everyone, but is not written down: If you want to teach someone to be a friend you don’t preach at them. Preaching certainly has its place but it is not discipleship.
Jesus preached to the crowds, but He spent time with His disciples, lots of time. He ate with them daily, He walked with them, listened and interacted with them. He is the One whom we imitate, and these are the ones we are to be and become. Do we think 'they' discipled any differently.

What if Peter and John had just sat in a pew once a week, and then went home? Some pastors say they are ‘trying’ to improve their small group participation, rather than ‘try’ and improve your small group percentage, insure 100% participation immediately by sitting down with the congregation and participating yourself. Jesus sat with his disciples, the whole church is gathered together every Sunday, now is your chance to sit down.

The home church on Sunday was perfect, except that it goes by so fast. It was just like a small group bible study, with singing and prayer, and food. But the fact that this is Sunday gives a real peace and joy to the meeting. The conversations are consistently more meaningful, deep, personable, and Spirit filled than I experience during a church ‘service’. I can never go back to sitting in a pew on Sunday: Jesus' priority was people, my priority is people. Secondly I learn a lot more studying with a group, or just at home with my bible. I’ll listen to the sermon on Thursday. What good is it to love and pray for one another if you dismiss being-together.

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Michelle
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Re: The Church Service

Post by Michelle » Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:09 pm

jriccitelli wrote: The home church on Sunday was perfect, except that it goes by so fast. It was just like a small group bible study, with singing and prayer, and food. But the fact that this is Sunday gives a real peace and joy to the meeting. The conversations are consistently more meaningful, deep, personable, and Spirit filled than I experience during a church ‘service’. I can never go back to sitting in a pew on Sunday: Jesus' priority was people, my priority is people. Secondly I learn a lot more studying with a group, or just at home with my bible. I’ll listen to the sermon on Thursday. What good is it to love and pray for one another if you dismiss being-together.
Are you going to make the home church your regular Sunday morning destination? What other times do you get together with this group of believers? I'm glad you found a place where you find peace, joy, and meaningful conversation.

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Re: The Church Service

Post by jriccitelli » Sun Apr 20, 2014 11:44 am

I wish I could have church at my home every once in awhile, if just to ‘demonstrate’ what Church really was meant to be, simple, intimate, personable, friendships built around His Word, where everyone shared, with a real piece of bread and a real glass of grape juice. We did have Church at our home on a Sunday and it was the best service I’ve ever attended because my friends made it so. But Church is not about me, it is about His body, not mine.

Although I like going to Easter Sunrise meetings, and Christmas Eve candle light services (where there is no-sermon), I figured out why I don’t like going to service on Easter or Christmas.

It is the sermon.
Some preachers are creative enough to come with an interesting biblical sermon that does not go back over the same sermon notes we’ve heard ‘every’ Easter and Christmas, but this is so rare. Generally it is the same story I already know and have heard a dozen times. I know the resurrection story, the Christmas verses, and all the connections from Luke to Genesis. I would hope most all Christians would have all these passages understood, at least within five years of becoming a believer. If not, this is a clear sign they are not getting discipleship, or bible time with other believers, or have no genuine interest in the Word. If half the congregation doesn’t know these basic chapters then there is a serious problem in the foundational teaching staff, teaching style, and interaction among the members and new believers.

I still wake up every Sunday morning wanting to celebrate the pure joy I have in my soul over what God has done for us, but it is no fun celebrating alone. I enjoy celebrating these events with other believing friends I know, and you would think Church would be the place to have this fellowship. But as soon as I see my friends and new acquaintances in the foyer, we are corralled into the pews and expected to pay our dues and respect to the one man in the pulpit. And then all my friends and visitors leave the auditorium to stand and fellowship in the hallways and parking lots for up to 15 minutes before driving back home, boy what a great church bonding experience.
On a typical Sunday: most church visitors have only 15 minutes of interaction with another member of their church, and usually before or after service (standing in the hallways). Then it is back to their cars and home. In contrast to home church meetings where we have two or more hours of just studying and talking to one another.

I can't imagine what would allow any teaching pastor to believe that a whole congregation is making the best use of this precious morning sitting and listening to one guy. And no matter how gifted some guy is at preaching, the sermon is neither Church, discipleship, assembly, participation, community, communion, sharing or Koinonia, non of these. Where as this 'should' have been all of the above, including a celebration of friends, fellowship and Christ.

I have come across, and attend, a really awesome interactive bible group on Sundays at a large local Church. Every one of the 20 or so couples who attend this group are mature Christians and quite capable of leading a class or table on their own. But that’s the problem, these people should be given a large room like the preacher gets and allowed to have table study and discipleship with those who are seeking better relationships and real participation in the body of Christ. Instead this group gets stuck in a back room we have to set up each week. I am praying we get to do a second fellowship/bible/discipleship hour in the large overfill room they have, but until then we will have Church down the hall, in the small room, with the little window.
(furthermore, this group was cancelled today because of the sermon services, just as my other favorite bible study at another church was cancelled this morning 'because' of the Easter service. I do not know who gave orders to disallow the bible fellowships at either church, but it wasn't the group leaders I know, so who?)

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Michelle
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Re: The Church Service

Post by Michelle » Sun Apr 20, 2014 4:43 pm

jriccitelli wrote:I wish I could have church at my home every once in awhile, if just to ‘demonstrate’ what Church really was meant to be, simple, intimate, personable, friendships built around His Word, where everyone shared, with a real piece of bread and a real glass of grape juice. We did have Church at our home on a Sunday and it was the best service I’ve ever attended because my friends made it so. But Church is not about me, it is about His body, not mine.

Although I like going to Easter Sunrise meetings, and Christmas Eve candle light services (where there is no-sermon), I figured out why I don’t like going to service on Easter or Christmas.

It is the sermon.
Some preachers are creative enough to come with an interesting biblical sermon that does not go back over the same sermon notes we’ve heard ‘every’ Easter and Christmas, but this is so rare. Generally it is the same story I already know and have heard a dozen times. I know the resurrection story, the Christmas verses, and all the connections from Luke to Genesis. I would hope most all Christians would have all these passages understood, at least within five years of becoming a believer. If not, this is a clear sign they are not getting discipleship, or bible time with other believers, or have no genuine interest in the Word. If half the congregation doesn’t know these basic chapters then there is a serious problem in the foundational teaching staff, teaching style, and interaction among the members and new believers.

I still wake up every Sunday morning wanting to celebrate the pure joy I have in my soul over what God has done for us, but it is no fun celebrating alone. I enjoy celebrating these events with other believing friends I know, and you would think Church would be the place to have this fellowship. But as soon as I see my friends and new acquaintances in the foyer, we are corralled into the pews and expected to pay our dues and respect to the one man in the pulpit. And then all my friends and visitors leave the auditorium to stand and fellowship in the hallways and parking lots for up to 15 minutes before driving back home, boy what a great church bonding experience.
On a typical Sunday: most church visitors have only 15 minutes of interaction with another member of their church, and usually before or after service (standing in the hallways). Then it is back to their cars and home. In contrast to home church meetings where we have two or more hours of just studying and talking to one another.

I can't imagine what would allow any teaching pastor to believe that a whole congregation is making the best use of this precious morning sitting and listening to one guy. And no matter how gifted some guy is at preaching, the sermon is neither Church, discipleship, assembly, participation, community, communion, sharing or Koinonia, non of these. Where as this 'should' have been all of the above, including a celebration of friends, fellowship and Christ.

I have come across, and attend, a really awesome interactive bible group on Sundays at a large local Church. Every one of the 20 or so couples who attend this group are mature Christians and quite capable of leading a class or table on their own. But that’s the problem, these people should be given a large room like the preacher gets and allowed to have table study and discipleship with those who are seeking better relationships and real participation in the body of Christ. Instead this group gets stuck in a back room we have to set up each week. I am praying we get to do a second fellowship/bible/discipleship hour in the large overfill room they have, but until then we will have Church down the hall, in the small room, with the little window.
(furthermore, this group was cancelled today because of the sermon services, just as my other favorite bible study at another church was cancelled this morning 'because' of the Easter service. I do not know who gave orders to disallow the bible fellowships at either church, but it wasn't the group leaders I know, so who?)
Happy Easter, jriccitelli! Christ is risen!

A couple of things:

I (and perhaps I'm alone in this among the forum participants) love Easter and Christmas services because of the sermons going over familiar passages. It's not that I don't already know the story of the resurrection and the events surrounding Jesus's birth, it's just that I rejoice in hearing them. On my children's birthdays I frequently reminisce over the events on the day they were born, since I rejoice that God gave them to me to raise. Likewise, on my wedding anniversary (even though I've been a widow for much longer than I was a wife) my thoughts are all about my wedding. How much more, especially on Easter, I love thinking about, re-reading the passages, singing the songs, and hearing it preached from the pulpit the resurrection of the Lord, the event that changes everything.

The resurrection does make all the difference to me. You seem to be past it, but I still haven't come to the point where implications of the death and resurrection of the Son of God have all unfolded in my mind. New things still happen to and for me which make me ponder how the Gospel impacts those situations. I think I would be saddened to be bored by hearing the Gospel.

I was going to demur once more that perhaps I'm the only one who feels this way, except I just looked over your post and was reminded that you said you want to celebrate the pure joy you have in your soul over what God had done for us. You go on to say that it's just no fun celebrating alone, which is what you consider happens at your church. I'm so sorry about that. I really wish for your sake that you could find a better church...except I'm a little confused about how many churches you attend and how long the services are, since you say that the pastor(s) use the whole morning for his (their) sermons. I doubt the pastor(s) would mind if you asked them who made the decisions to cancel the bible studies and give reasons for the change in routine. Why don't you ask?

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jriccitelli
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Re: The Church Service

Post by jriccitelli » Sun Apr 27, 2014 11:23 pm

Michelle and others, please do not take anything in my post as negative or personal, understand I want your input, and it helps me sort out and put into words what I am trying to say. I am formulating this as I go, as I don’t have this written out somewhere else. I have discussed it in other contexts, and places but I am trying to get input as well as generate discussion. So this is directed to whoever is listening. I have been blessed lately having come in contact with others having home church and small group movements, including more and more radio talk about dissatisfaction in church teaching approaches as well as teachers who see interaction as the key to a great Church.
You asked what my church service was like, it is like most: Aside from the 45-90 minute sermon time most all services I’ve attended have the following things that can all be done more intimately around tables: preliminary announcements, music time, tithing, prayer, all these things can happen in a small group, and all these are beneficial in developing bonds between believers more effectively if done in small groups (announcements and prayer for instance).

Also, I really do love Easter, and Christmas. What I meant by no fun celebrating alone, is that I could stay home and celebrate, and yet going to church means I usually have to sit or stand in an isle facing a stage, usually among strangers, where as I would prefer to have had a chance to get to know the people standing together in this room, and then we could celebrate with friends and acquaintances at church rather than remain strangers. It is sad to think Christians need to be taught how to have Church without a pulpit and a stage in front of them (I do appreciate large worship immensely, but still these weekly events should not substitute the overwhelming necessity for relationships, community and love.

I am sentimental and mystical on Holy days, in fact I have never experienced anything as emotional and moving as the Passover/Passion plays I’ve witnessed. I could write paragraphs on my love and memories for the Holy days, the Holy night, nativity scenes, Christmas lights, and despite the pagan affiliations, I do love hiding the Easter eggs, and such. Please don’t think I grow tired of the passion that saved me, consider that I’ve spent thousands of hours over the details of the passion of Christ and the implications (Soteriology and other Theologies), devoted my life and soul to studying and wanting to know the Passion and resurrection intimately, consider that I do this because I love the passion and incarnation.

I have not come to this point from an emotional void, or a personal need, I came to this point because in the course of teaching and studying the biblical concepts of: The Temple / The Priesthood / The Church / Ecclesiology / The Body of Christ / The Holy Spirit / Authority / Preaching / Teaching, etc. And additionally from studying the rise of the Catholic church, its twisting and its destruction of what Church was and meant, and because some of these continued traditions are practiced unwittingly in the protestant churches.

I have also come to this point from participating in bible studies and fellowships for years. Since I love bible study, I made it a point to attend and participate in as many small groups as I had time. I also began to study the ‘dynamics’ of bible studies and teaching practices. I also love Church, and whenever I go to church I like to observe the dynamic of what happens there (sometimes I make my notes while the preacher is going over something he has already said 3 times in the past ten minutes). I have also come to this point from studying the general manipulation techniques used by cults, isms, political and social movements (i.e. Mormonism, Jim Jones, Manson, Hitler, Communism, Planned parenthood, Hypnotism, prosperity cults, multi-level marketing and sales techniques, etc., and yes, you can find most of these traits in many common churches). I am also motivated to do something about the lack of interaction between churches that occupy the same town and neighborhood, the aversion to associate with other church bodies, or denominations, generally because pastors fear members might stray, or miss putting their tithe in the pot one Sunday (i.e. Rom.16:17).

Do I have to mention moral relativism, adultery in the church, falling pastors, false teaching, lack of teaching, a secular post-Christian western world, and all the empty churches across Europe?

All I’m suggesting is the need to bond together on Sunday morning. We can’t waste another Sunday sitting next to people we don’t know, when we could be growing our relationships. We don't have forever, the church has wasted enough time, someone needs you and someone needs the Jesus in you. The Spirit was given to every one who believes, this gift of the Spirit was meant to give us life and bond us together as one Body. I have shared that your relationship with God is not only vertical, God is also horizontal, God is with us, He indwells the believer. Jesus is in other believers, Jesus wants us to know Jesus in other believers. He wants us to talk to Him as we talk with one another. Jesus is manifest in the body when we speak to one another. Jesus lifts us up when we lift one another up, God can tell you He loves you when a friend tells you they love you. And you can honestly tell someone Jesus loves them when we have learned that we can love another the way God does, if we're allowed the time to find out.

It would be easy to say: just let the bible study/fellowship format replace the Sermon as the Sunday morning ritual, but if the study ‘leader’ does the same thing a preacher does and dominates the believers time to associate and share, then nothing has been accomplished. I noted before that my role as a teacher is to get the believer to think and talk for himself. As soon as the group is going in a Godly communication around study, then my work is done and I can relax, as Paul wrote in Romans 15 “so that I may come to you in joy by the will of God and find refreshing rest in your company”. When leaders dominate all the time a small group had to interact, they have wasted that groups chance to grow together (and now a video is commonly substituted). Bible study material is hugely available and almost any believer can pick up a study guide and help lead a group, most all the booklets have teacher guides and directions printed inside. I do not find any difference in the content between what a believer can read from these guides for themselves and what a preacher says from a pulpit. The effect is that the believer learns they can teach and learn for and among themselves, is this not the goal and purpose of teaching and making disciples?

Still, If someone doesn’t want to learn to share and discuss the scriptures with others, and someone prefers that believers not practice this behavior on Sundays, then they are free to go back to their pews and pulpits on Sunday morning. But as for me and my house, I will declare the right to assemble with one another, and I will sing, pray, and break bread with my brothers and sisters, and encourage them to do the same with others house to house... “Teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always” (Matt. 28)

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