The Church Service

User avatar
jriccitelli
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: The Church Service

Post by jriccitelli » Thu Mar 29, 2012 11:02 am

If all the people walking in the door on Sunday morning were ambitious about fellowship, and had a small group or a family of Christian friends that they actively met with, and were on that path of maturity and well being then great! But the average majority of Christians and visitors are 'not' like that, that’s the fact. I'm not concerned with 'myself', I have had a religious experience that keeps unfolding (I don’t know why, it just does), but average church attendees have not yet had that experience.

As I sit through service my heart aches in me because I know so many of these people are 'not' getting enough fellowship, not enough discipleship, not enough close attention from a fellow (hopefully mature enough) Christian, and the Church building and parking lot will again be empty 15 minutes after the 'pastor' finishes his last final point, and these folks will in all statistical likelihood not have any more church until 15 minutes before next weeks sermon.
I cant wait for the sermon to get over, and I scramble to make new comers feel welcome (and help clean up the donut table) but I have watched thousands over my years who have talked to no one before or after service and even those who may have 'wanted' to meet someone, but just head for the door anyway and slowly make their way back to the car thinking they had experienced church.

I blame the modern pastor, sure people are responsible for their own willingness to fellowship but it is in the definition of 'pastor' to be responsible, if they are not then they should be made aware and act. If the office of pastor is not working, or benefitting the church then it should be replaced and done away with. That is 'until' the body matures through more fellowship, 'personal' teaching and communication amongst 'all' the elders and mature Christians, once a group is close enough and mature enough, 'then' you can reintroduce the sermon to those who are fellowshipping, not the other way around where everyone walks into a building and maybe per chance bump into the small groups table in the lobby, and pick up a flyer so 'then' they might discover the church.

I am all for teaching lecture style as Steve does, and I promote his show all the time to people (and I would encourage the school also). Steve is uniquely gifted and its sad there are not more like him. But I am sure he would agree that this should be only in 'addition' to interactive teaching, fellowship and oneness with other Christians (if available).
In fact I love and encourage christian radio, education, and special lecture time for 'all' Christians, but I cannot even encourage people to listen to the radio until I first begin a conversation with them, and it may take a couple visits before I have encouraged and convinced them to participate more in fellowship and study. Like I said 80% only come for the service, and I am convinced that they think that is all there is, all they can expect, and all they need, and I swear that most speaking pastors are not willing to give up the pulpit 'just once a month' to devote to smaller groups on Sunday morning (maybe for fear the congregations might enjoy that better?)
If you live in Northern California and are experiencing something better, let me know, I don’t see it.

(Be sure to be on time for my sermon next Sunday at 11am prompt, on 'Fellowship and intimacy, building meaningful relationships' part 12. Please note there will be a meeting on Wednesday night to discuss the new upholstery for the pews that are well worn out)

User avatar
mattrose
Posts: 1920
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2008 11:28 am
Contact:

Re: The Church Service

Post by mattrose » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:55 pm

I think there is agreement between all involved in this thread that the Sunday morning worship service is not meeting the fellowship needs of the average church-goer.

There seems to be some disagreement as to whether this is a problem and/or who is to blame for this problem. We could blame the pastors for not creating an environment that is geared toward fellowship. We could blame the people for not individually seeking genuine Christian fellowship on their own. We could blame the very idea of the Sunday morning large gathering.

In my opinion, unfortunately, the extent of the problem and the location of the blame are not easy to determine. I mean, we're talking in very broad terms about something that differs in every local church. But I think the general points that are coming from this discussion are:

1) Pastors/elders need to actively oversee 'fellowship' by creating environments for it to happen.
2) People need to take some initiative in seeking out this sort of fellowship
3) The traditional church service cannot and will not create fellowship, it either needs to be supplemented or abandoned.

Roberto
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:57 pm

Re: The Church Service

Post by Roberto » Thu Mar 29, 2012 8:36 pm

jriccitelli wrote:If all the people walking in the door on Sunday morning were ambitious about fellowship, and had a small group or a family of Christian friends that they actively met with, and were on that path of maturity and well being then great! But the average majority of Christians and visitors are 'not' like that, that’s the fact. I'm not concerned with 'myself', I have had a religious experience that keeps unfolding (I don’t know why, it just does), but average church attendees have not yet had that experience.

As I sit through service my heart aches in me because I know so many of these people are 'not' getting enough fellowship, not enough discipleship, not enough close attention from a fellow (hopefully mature enough) Christian, and the Church building and parking lot will again be empty 15 minutes after the 'pastor' finishes his last final point, and these folks will in all statistical likelihood not have any more church until 15 minutes before next weeks sermon.
I cant wait for the sermon to get over, and I scramble to make new comers feel welcome (and help clean up the donut table) but I have watched thousands over my years who have talked to no one before or after service and even those who may have 'wanted' to meet someone, but just head for the door anyway and slowly make their way back to the car thinking they had experienced church.

I blame the modern pastor, sure people are responsible for their own willingness to fellowship but it is in the definition of 'pastor' to be responsible, if they are not then they should be made aware and act. If the office of pastor is not working, or benefitting the church then it should be replaced and done away with. That is 'until' the body matures through more fellowship, 'personal' teaching and communication amongst 'all' the elders and mature Christians, once a group is close enough and mature enough, 'then' you can reintroduce the sermon to those who are fellowshipping, not the other way around where everyone walks into a building and maybe per chance bump into the small groups table in the lobby, and pick up a flyer so 'then' they might discover the church.

I am all for teaching lecture style as Steve does, and I promote his show all the time to people (and I would encourage the school also). Steve is uniquely gifted and its sad there are not more like him. But I am sure he would agree that this should be only in 'addition' to interactive teaching, fellowship and oneness with other Christians (if available).
In fact I love and encourage christian radio, education, and special lecture time for 'all' Christians, but I cannot even encourage people to listen to the radio until I first begin a conversation with them, and it may take a couple visits before I have encouraged and convinced them to participate more in fellowship and study. Like I said 80% only come for the service, and I am convinced that they think that is all there is, all they can expect, and all they need, and I swear that most speaking pastors are not willing to give up the pulpit 'just once a month' to devote to smaller groups on Sunday morning (maybe for fear the congregations might enjoy that better?)
If you live in Northern California and are experiencing something better, let me know, I don’t see it.

(Be sure to be on time for my sermon next Sunday at 11am prompt, on 'Fellowship and intimacy, building meaningful relationships' part 12. Please note there will be a meeting on Wednesday night to discuss the new upholstery for the pews that are well worn out)

Why don't you take a proactive stance and ask one of them out for coffee. That is what is needed, don't you think?

User avatar
jriccitelli
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: The Church Service

Post by jriccitelli » Fri Mar 30, 2012 11:09 am

Proactive;
I'll do that, and I have in the past with different results. I would go to the pastor at the church I attend now but there is no lead pastor at the moment, they are doing a pastor search since the previous one went back to his previous church about 2 months ago.
I was hoping this would be a good time to bring up or consider the more intimate tables and short sermon approach (It just so has happened) and I see this may be an opportunity, but this is a denomination. And I have only been attending here for about 18 months. Although I know all the elders, and they 'are' old (I may have to edit this), I want to talk to them first to get their feelings on what 'they' are looking for before I open my big mouth (Its best not to throw a new ball on the field until you know what game they're playing). It is a Baptist church and Baptists generally allow a lot of flexibility in their service and church mechanisms. Although I am not a Baptist in theology (I like dancing with my wife), I do like the denomination.

The Church I attend now is a great example of what I am talking of, I love this church because it is so small, only about 100-150 attendees on a Sunday. I started going because they always have about 70 or so people attend the 2 or 3 different bible studies on Sunday mornings. It is this bible study group that is the heart of the church, always there and usually doing everything in the church (Interesting; I might note that I never saw either of the two previous pastors attend the morning bible studies).

I love that I know almost every person in the church by name, mainly because most are involved with the bible studies. The people I have not got to know are the people who come to the 'service only' and disappear out the door again. These are the people I am concerned with, is it wrong to care about them? Jesus went after the one lost sheep - feed my sheep - He looked upon the crowds and had compassion on them - I can think of many scriptures that show Gods concern with the unconnected sheep, as I am writing this I am listening to the Thru the Bible program (and no I am not a dispensationalist) and J. Vernon just said exactly what I am saying. There would be no unconnected people if all attended the proverbial table of fellowship, and participated in what is known as breaking bread together. There is a good amount of bread breaking and pot luck in this churches dining hall, which is the same room that the bible fellowships are attended, my favorite room.

Yet I fear the future pastor may again be a person who is more focused on his sermon than the relationships among the people sitting in front of him. Does the pastor have time for every new and old member of the body? No, yet the pastor takes up 90% of the main service and 90% of the time we would have otherwise have had to reach out and fellowship with the people who come and go, many never return, many never find friends, many never have someone 'talk to them' about the gospel.

I have never heard a sermon that was more important than reaching out and getting to know people, with the Gospel. I was involved with some unproductive street evangelists who I found never made an attempt to even find out a persons name. The productive missionaries always made a point of finding out a little about the person first.
I have studied child and adult learning styles and I know we must talk interactively with a person to actually know if they actually comprehend any topic, the conversation must be two-way to best share the Gospel, or any subject.
Last edited by jriccitelli on Sat Mar 31, 2012 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

Roberto
Posts: 150
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:57 pm

Re: The Church Service

Post by Roberto » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:47 am

jriccitelli wrote:Proactive;
I'll do that, and I have in the past with different results. I would go to the pastor at the church I attend now but there is no lead pastor at the moment, they are doing a pastor search since the previous one went back to his previous church about 2 months ago.
I was hoping this would be a good time to bring up or consider the more intimate tables and short sermon approach (It just so has happened) and I see this may be an opportunity, but this is a denomination. And I have only been attending here for about 18 months. Although I know all the elders, and they 'are' old (I may have to edit this), I have talked to them first to get their feelings on what 'they' are looking for before I open my big mouth (Its best not to throw a new ball on the field until you know what game they're playing). It is a Baptist church and Baptists generally allow a lot of flexibility in their service and church mechanisms. Although I am not a Baptist in theology (I like dancing with my wife), I do like the denomination.

The Church I attend now is a great example of what I am talking of, I love this church because it is so small, only about 100-150 attendees on a Sunday. I started going because they always have about 70 or so people attend the 2 or 3 different bible studies on Sunday mornings. It is this bible study group that is the heart of the church, always there and usually doing everything in the church (Interesting; I might note that I never saw either of the two previous pastors attend the morning bible studies).

I love that I know almost every person in the church by name, mainly because most are involved with the bible studies. The people I have not got to know are the people who come to the 'service only' and disappear out the door again. These are the people I am concerned with, is it wrong to care about them? Jesus went after the one lost sheep - feed my sheep - He looked upon the crowds and had compassion on them - I can think of many scriptures that show Gods concern with the unconnected sheep, as I am writing this I am listening to the Thru the Bible program (and no I am not a dispensationalist) and J. Vernon just said exactly what I am saying. There would be no unconnected people if all attended the proverbial table of fellowship, and participated in what is known as breaking bread together. There is a good amount of bread breaking and pot luck in this churches dining hall, which is the same room that the bible fellowships are attended, my favorite room.

Yet I fear the future pastor may again be a person who is more focused on his sermon than the relationships among the people sitting in front of him. Does the pastor have time for every new and old member of the body? No, yet the pastor takes up 90% of the main service and 90% of the time we would have otherwise have had to reach out and fellowship with the people who come and go, many never return, many never find friends, many never have someone 'talk to them' about the gospel.

I have never heard a sermon that was more important than reaching out and getting to know people, with the Gospel. I was involved with some unproductive street evangelists who I found never made an attempt to even find out a persons name. The productive missionaries always made a point of finding out a little about the person first.
I have studied child and adult learning styles and I know we must talk interactively with a person to actually know if they actually comprehend any topic, the conversation must be two-way to best share the Gospel, or any subject.

Why do you need to go to the pastor before asking someone to join you for throwing a frisbee, or walking in the park, or go to a movie or ask them to a barbecue?
Don't wait, man. Go reach out. Have fun and friendships. Enjoy!
You can even go to another church during the week (shudder)
Remember, the early believers shared *everything*: meals, burdens feelings money, etc......think 24/7, 7 days a week as the limits of involvement, not "just the services and the programs. It's about *Relationships*!

simplesimon
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:00 am

Re: The Church Service

Post by simplesimon » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:36 pm

Hello All, First post here~ hope it's worth the conversation~
In Gen 4:9-10, it was Cain’s defensive heart that asked, “Am I my brother’s keeper?” He said, “What have you done? The voice of your brother’s blood is crying to me from the ground.” Is the typical Sunday service, weekly calendar, pastor sermons, programs, classes, church busyness, truly answering the Cry of those still outside and dying inside ‘the church?’

It looks like it should work, but is it? I think the difficulty is throwing out something that has yielded some benefit. Do people hold on to broken radios, shirts with buttons popped off, pens almost out of ink, because they were once useful, or they could be useful or they might be useful? I think this is problem with the modern church. It’s not working.

But it may be that the church leaders and their team that do encourage the very behavior they wish weren’t there in the congregation (just showing up for 1 hour on Sunday). They keep trying to come up with programs and activities and presentations that will draw people. It’s almost like church is trying to sell itself. Churches are always trying to convince you why you need to go ‘there’. How great it is. How happy you’ll be. How it is a family (even though you may not even be known or missed.)

People really do want truth; or at least the freedom that only the truth can provide. Yet my concern is that there is so much sugar-coating about ‘all the church has to offer’ and ineffective ‘greet your neighbors’ that no one can find our Lord’s truth because the emphasis is on ‘going to church’, inviting your friends, family and co-workers to ‘go to church’ and sitting to hear what the pastor has to say about how good it is that you are ‘at church.’ And then you say, you now go or went ‘to church.’

User avatar
jriccitelli
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: The Church Service

Post by jriccitelli » Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:36 am

I am not sure why you are posting my entire post in quotes Roberto, but you may have misunderstood what perspective I am talking about :( . In any case, if someone reading this may have perceived the same thing, I am not talking 'only' about my immediate sphere of influence and relationship's, I am concerned with the church at large, and in general.

I am writing on this thread to sound board my thoughts on the dilemma, condition, and direction the church here in the USA is taking. On one hand I see some positive signs, but I am seeing too many Bad signs (secularism, experientialism, mysticism, ecumenicalism, Corporate church, etc.) in the church :cry: , but hopefully the trend downward will reverse but like American society also our culture is becoming very unchristian, highly immoral, sexual, crass, materialistic etc. etc. and very fast. The Church has become affected by the culture rather than affecting the culture. When the church starts mirroring the culture it has no relevance and anyone who seeks spirituality at that point usually migrates towards the mystical and experiential religions including Catholicism rather than repentance, holiness and modesty.

Like I said; many reasons have been given for the diminishing church, and the floundering Christian but I was pointing out something that has not often been addressed; the church service itself, the sermon and the time devoted to it. And since the pastor is directly responsible for this area, I am questioning the duty, role and obligation of the pastor concerning the sermon. I try not to complain, unless I can think of a solution. Many, many people have been discussing the plight of the church for years (Maybe thousands of years as so did Moses, Isaiah, the prophets, Jesus, James, and Paul). Many good books have been written on the subject (Note; Francis Schaeffer :ugeek: , George Barna, etc.) and as it is important to always be alert, aware, watching and warning if necessesary to guard the flock. Please note; I have some pastors with whom I have had friendships with, speak with, and 'many' of whom I admire. But as any good teacher and shepherd I should submit to what Paul said; that we should examine 'ourselves' to see if we are in the faith, teaching correctly, holding to what we have been taught, serving and not lording over, etc. We as Christians should be alert, and if possible active on all fronts; in our own lives, our church and our country. :)
Last edited by jriccitelli on Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jriccitelli
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: The Church Service

Post by jriccitelli » Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:46 am

I totally agree with Roberto on being proactive, as one of my favorite pastors (Sam Earp) once told me in the hallway years ago; if you want to do a bible study, start a bible study! Me and my wife (who was leading bible study when I met her) have led numerous bible studies in our home over the years and we have attended many other studies, with, and at different churches. Most all of our friendships are from relationships made around the bible. Small group ministry has been the focus of my life for the past twenty years, since I have been under the notion that this is what fellowship and church was supposed to be (Maybe I'm wrong and someone should straighten me out, because at 9:45 I'm going to the Sunday morning bible study at the Baptist church down the street, this is generally the highlight of my week)

So back to my point, the bible study at 9:45 (And the occasional potluck afterwards) always brings about much more interesting interaction, relationship building, learning, friendship, and community than the one hour sermon could 'ever' produce. Sure a good sermon is profitable 'once in awhile' but it has become the center and focus of 'every single Sunday' for most every single church, when at the same time (70-90%) of christians never actively participate in the small group bible teachings and fellowships. That means only ten to thirty percent of 'christianity' is never becoming what Christ prayed for and commanded us; that we all be one (He meant know one another, not just be in the same building) and that we love one another (You have to know someone to love them), and to teach them (You have to know and talk to someone to really teach another person), in fact we might even learn from them that’s the point, none of us know it all, God gave some this and someone else that, we 'all' have something to say, and to contribute.

That is why I love a facilitator/teacher that always inspires the group to speak up and express their thoughts, how else can two really know if they are understanding each other, or what is being taught?

If people are only staying at church for an hour and a half, then less time should be given to the sermon, if you can get people to stay for more than 90 minutes, participate in at least of one hour of fellowship, then wonderful, you have a vibrant and dedicated community (and possibly a good pastor), but if you are not instilling upon giving your whole church community the message, necessity, priority and need of being in relationship with other members, and in interactive bible study then you are missing the message of the message.

User avatar
jriccitelli
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: The Church Service

Post by jriccitelli » Tue Apr 10, 2012 11:30 am

I rushed off to church early again on Sunday looking forward to the fellowship and bible study at 9:30am before going to the 'Easter sermon' in the main auditorium. My lovable bible study teacher had rearranged all the tables and chairs into - guess what? - rows like pews all facing forward. Auugh. Well I thought he would at least use his usual style of interacting with the class, but no, he spoke the whole time. Again during this time we had a new visitor dressed in Sunday clothes come and sit in the class, I got her a chair and some people said hello to her, but she got up and left before it was over and was out the door, right after the teacher made us sit and listen to a worship song on his transistor radio.

I generally avoid Easter sermons, but I go for the worship and the little bit of fellowship we can glean 'after' the service in the foyer and the parking lot (how many sermons on Luke 23-24 can you hear? they hardly vary) The Easter service was again full of people dressed up and many with the hopes of enjoying church, we all sat and listened to the sermon, well delivered I might add, with smiles and pauses, for over an hour. It is interesting that I noticed the teacher who had given the morning talk and a few others falling asleep, it was just too much talking by one man.
Again as soon as service was over many scattered quickly back to their cars, some not to be seen again until Christmas, if ever.
What an opportunity this 'could have been' to meet these people and have church with them, to learn that 'they' are the church, not the building. That loving one-another, being one in Christ and being a member of His body means more than sitting through a sermon for an hour.

User avatar
jriccitelli
Posts: 1317
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 10:14 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: The Church Service

Post by jriccitelli » Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:24 am

I was a part of a church starting endeavor years ago where a pastor felt the call to take half the congregation to the other side of town and do a church plant. I went because the idea, we were told, was to reach out to the poor side of town, of course the plant was smack dab in the middle of upper scale new homes just adjacent to the brand new multi-zillion dollar super community we refer to here as the tract mansions (Silver Creek in San Jose) after being duped by that move of god I went back to what was left of the old church that still met together in the fellowship room of a bigger church. I was totally impressed by some of my friends there who had been having church for a year 'without' a pastor, they had continued to meet and hold services together with guest speakers and books. They decided to pick a bible study book / series and use that as the format, the whole group listening to a 10 minute (no longer) intro and then discussing and reading together as small groups within the room. This is much like many churches do for evening studies during the week, only they did it on Sunday morning as the regular meeting. Remember they did it 'without' a pastor. :shock:

This story had a tragic ending when finally the big Church decided the little church should have a pastor, the new pastor even promised to wrap up his sermon time in 40 minutes or so and leave the last 20 minutes for discussion time, do you think that ever happened? There were times when we had a whole 10 minutes left , but more often we were left with 5 minutes of fellowship. Even more brilliant was when the new pastor decided that the congregation should be split in two with the older people meeting upstairs and the younger downstairs, this didn’t work out very well when after he found out that it was all the older people who ran everything, he had no one doing music, sound, cafeteria, set-up it was all the older persons. It became a huge fiasco over getting rid of him, as some still of course had endeared themselves to him.

That service is dissolved now but the friendships I made during that year are the ones I still have today, when I talk of my great church experience it was the time we had then without a pastor, many, many long lasting friendships came from that time. :)

As a teacher myself I too would love to preach long sermons, and I can think of many things that need to be said. But more importantly I find people need 'one on one' community and fellowship, not more time spent being spectators to a pulpit, they can watch a sermon on TV. A pastor should be one who knows when to put down the microphone and be a member. Sit down and teach your disciples so 'they' can teach others by your example. A good pastor leads people to become one together and to love one another. No matter how bad 'I want' to give a sermon, I should encourage the assembly to exercise their 'own' gifts and knowledge, each one sharing a word among themselves. Making disciples not bench warmers.

Post Reply

Return to “Fellowship & Worship”