Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

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darinhouston
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Re: Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

Post by darinhouston » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:20 pm

RND wrote: Steve, if I'm not mistaken the only "reason" you gave for meeting on Sunday was that "on Sundays you will probably find more people to gather with, if that is something you are interested in." We can say the same thing for meeting in bars and flop houses but we don't conduct church in those types of places for specific reasons.

Look, I'm sorry I challenged you to provide honest and detailed exegesis as to why the majority of Christians meet and gather on Sunday and you were unable to. Let's face it, for the most part, the Catholics are much more honest about this than the "Protestants" are. The Catholics say "the Bible plus tradition." The Protestants say "the Bible only." It is for this very reason the Protestants were laughed out of the Council of Trent.
RND, you just don't hear what Steve is saying -- he can't give you a scriptural exegesis and shouldn't be required to do so because that's not something he's arguing is a teaching of Scripture. What he has done is to give you exegesis why meeting only on Sunday (or even Saturday) is not required. The fact that people do so is because they either see that matter differently than Steve (or me) or out of tradition -- neither is justified in my opinion.

I think we agree that we could as easily meet in bars and flop houses. Practically, if you were looking for Christians, you would be unlikely to find them there, but if you agreed with a few Christians that this was a convenient or beneficial place to meet, then certainly you could do so (perhaps, unwisely, perhaps not). The point is that wherever we meet, there is the church. When the primitive church met, they did so daily and in homes. They saw the church as "community" and not as an institution. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

If we agreed with your premise that a given day need be set apart for holy worship in a meeting house dedicated to such corporate worship, then we could have a reasonable debate as to which day to do so -- but, we don't agree on the premise.

I, personally, have several "Christian communities" with which I fellowship -- some from former churches, some from former bible study classes, some from previous employers, some here on this forum, etc. Many of us "sit under" different teachers or have different primary "loci" to meet, but some of us only meet at restaurants or homes or even -- heaven forbid -- bars from time to time. If I had a problem with one of them, I would have to sit back and consider the most likely avenue for handling the dispute and identify the corollary in that situation to an "elder" to address the matter, but probably gather the group of Christians that we had in common to effect some discipline. Praise God, I've not had that problem (as one would expect to be the case where folks are living by the Spirit in their relationships). Ironically, I have had that problem from time to time in my most institutionalized form of gathering (our local church), and frankly I've never had discipline work out like it should from Scripture. That's a failure of the local churches today and not a failure of the evangelical understanding of the scriptural model, which they fail to follow (in all but the most egregious and open cases of dispute, anyway).

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Re: Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

Post by RND » Wed Feb 18, 2009 6:32 pm

darinhouston wrote:RND, you just don't hear what Steve is saying -- he can't give you a scriptural exegesis and shouldn't be required to do so because that's not something he's arguing is a teaching of Scripture.


Darin, if that's the case then there should be a study given as to why "meeting everyday" has replaced the sabbath. Simply stating that Hebrews 3 and 4 say this when it can be shown they have nothing to do with eliminating the sabbath, or even changing.

This is exactly where the Catholic argument trumps the Protestant argument. Catholics will say that Paul changed the sabbath because Paul had the "authority" to change it.
What he has done is to give you exegesis why meeting only on Sunday (or even Saturday) is not required.


By misquoting Hebrews 3 and 4? There are many, many non-sabbatarians that would disagree with Steve on this position.
The fact that people do so is because they either see that matter differently than Steve (or me) or out of tradition -- neither is justified in my opinion.
I'm sorry I'm not following you here. Are you saying no one is justified in viewing a situation differently than you Darin?
I think we agree that we could as easily meet in bars and flop houses. Practically, if you were looking for Christians, you would be unlikely to find them there, but if you agreed with a few Christians that this was a convenient or beneficial place to meet, then certainly you could do so (perhaps, unwisely, perhaps not). The point is that wherever we meet, there is the church. When the primitive church met, they did so daily and in homes. They saw the church as "community" and not as an institution. Why is that so hard for you to understand?
They also met together and congregated on the sabbath. Is that so difficult to understand?
If we agreed with your premise that a given day need be set apart for holy worship in a meeting house dedicated to such corporate worship, then we could have a reasonable debate as to which day to do so -- but, we don't agree on the premise.
Well, if that's the case can show me any conclusive scriptures that say "Forget the sabbath...."
I, personally, have several "Christian communities" with which I fellowship -- some from former churches, some from former bible study classes, some from previous employers, some here on this forum, etc. Many of us "sit under" different teachers or have different primary "loci" to meet, but some of us only meet at restaurants or homes or even -- heaven forbid -- bars from time to time. If I had a problem with one of them, I would have to sit back and consider the most likely avenue for handling the dispute and identify the corollary in that situation to an "elder" to address the matter, but probably gather the group of Christians that we had in common to effect some discipline. Praise God, I've not had that problem (as one would expect to be the case where folks are living by the Spirit in their relationships). Ironically, I have had that problem from time to time in my most institutionalized form of gathering (our local church), and frankly I've never had discipline work out like it should from Scripture. That's a failure of the local churches today and not a failure of the evangelical understanding of the scriptural model, which they fail to follow (in all but the most egregious and open cases of dispute, anyway).
Yeah, that seems to be the way the world has always been in the church.
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Re: Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

Post by steve » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:13 pm

They also met together and congregated on the sabbath. Is that so difficult to understand?
I am not aware of any scripture that says that Christians met together on the sabbath. We know that Paul went to the synagogue to preach on the sabbath, but that was not a meeting of Christians, but of Jews. So let me get this straight...

Paul fellowshipped with Christians every day of the week, but he set an example for us in his going to a non-Christian, Jewish meeting on Saturday? Is this what SDAs recommend that we emulate?

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Re: Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

Post by RND » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:17 pm

steve wrote:So let me get this straight...

Paul fellowshipped with Christians every day of the week, but he set an example for us in his going to a non-Christian, Jewish meeting on Saturday?


Um, Steve the first "Christians" were Jews. Using your logic about Sunday where do you think the disciples, including Paul, were most likely to find Jews in need of the Gospel? BTW, I understand Paul was a tent maker by trade. Did Paul make tents on the sabbath?
Is this what SDAs recommend that we emulate?
Jesus Christ and Him crucified brother. Emulate Him. BTW, He was a sabbath keeper too! :D
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Re: Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

Post by steve » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:23 pm

Perhaps I need to spell out my questions more clearly (please answer with actual answers, rather than snide remarks):

1. Is there any passage that says the early Gentile Christians held church gatherings on the sabbath (please provide examples)?

2. Since we know that Paul went to the Jewish synagogue on the sabbath (though we do not know that he ever met with a Christian assembly on that day of the week), are you suggesting that we do what he did—i.e., attend the Jewish synagogue on the sabbath?

3. Do you know of any scripture that says that Jesus was a sabbath-keeper? (I know of one that says he "broke the sabbath"—John 5:18).

4. Is there any scripture to which you would submit if it said you were wrong?

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Re: Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

Post by RND » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:26 pm

Man Steve, you changed that one so fast...... :D
steve wrote:They also met together and congregated on the sabbath. Is that so difficult to understand?
I am not aware of any scripture that says that Christians met together on the sabbath.
Steve, the first Christians were Jews. Once they were converted by way of the Gospel when and where did they meet? Conversely, to your point, are you aware of any scripture verses that say that "Christians" didn't meet on the sabbath?
We know that Paul went to the synagogue to preach on the sabbath, but that was not a meeting of Christians, but of Jews.


What were they after the accepted the reality of the Messiah? One with Christ. No more Jew, no more Greek.
So let me get this straight...

Paul fellowshipped with Christians every day of the week, but he set an example for us in his going to a non-Christian, Jewish meeting on Saturday? Is this what SDAs recommend that we emulate?
[/quote]

Asked and answered.
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Re: Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

Post by RND » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:35 pm

steve wrote:Perhaps I need to spell out my questions more clearly (please answer with actual answers, rather than snide remarks):
Steve, pointing out the first Christians were actually Jewish converts wasn't meant to be "snide." Sorry you took it that way.
1. Is there any passage that says the early Gentile Christians held church gatherings on the sabbath (please provide examples)?
Sorry to answer your question with another question but are there any scriptures that say the early Gentile Christians didn't hold church gatherings on the sabbath?

Luke and Paul delivered "the decrees" of the council and entered Greece to "preach the gospel." Acts 16:4, 9-10. In Philippi, "on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river side." Acts 16:13. There was no synagogue there, but it was still the Sabbath! A Gentile named Lydia, "whose heart the Lord opened ... was baptized, and her household" (16:14-15). This was the beginning of the New Testament Sabbath-keeping Church of Jesus Christ in Philippi. Paul's letter to the Philippians was written to this church.

Paul "came to Corinth ... he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks." Acts 18:1, 4. "He continued a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them." Verse 11. Paul did not preach the traditions of men, but only "the word of God." Many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized," including "Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue" (vs. 8). Crispus was a Sabbath-keeper who probably became one of the leaders (see 1 Corinthians 1:14) of the early New Testament Sabbath-keeping Church of Jesus Christ in Corinth. Paul's letters, First and Second Corinthians, were written to this church.
2. Since we know that Paul went to the Jewish synagogue on the sabbath (though we do not know that he ever met with a Christian assembly on that day of the week), are you suggesting that we do what he did—i.e., attend the Jewish synagogue on the sabbath?
Sure! What's wrong with a Jewish synagogue? How else to witness to Jews than meet them in their own house! Since I eat Kosher that's even better.
3. Do you know of any scripture that says that Jesus was a sabbath-keeper? (I know of one that says he "broke the sabbath"—John 5:18).
He attended sabbath regularly as part of His custom.

Luke 4:16 And he (Jesus) came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he (Jesus) went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.

BTW Steve, who's sabbath law did Jesus "break" the one He made or the one the scribes and Pharisees held on to? Also, had Jesus broken any of the Ten Commandments or the Mosaic law in thought, word or deed then He would have been disqualified as having been blameless and unfit to act as our "spotless lamb" of God.
4. Is there any scripture to which you would submit if it said you were wrong?
You bet! In a heartbeat.
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Re: Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

Post by steve » Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:51 pm

RND,

You did not provide any scripture documenting Christian meetings on the sabbath.

The decrees of the Jerusalem Council (to which you referred) made no mention of sabbath keeping. In fact, apart from four rules specifically itemized, the decree said that there would be "no further burden" to be placed upon the Gentile believers.

The meeting by the river in Philippi was a Jewish congregation (Lydia was a Gentile God-fearer, who attended the Jewish meeting). It is clear that the meeting was not a Christian one, because no one in Philippi had yet heard the gospel. Paul and his companions were the only Christians in town, and they were outsiders visiting the meeting.

The other examples you provided were also not examples of Christian gatherings. They are examples of evangelistic outreach conducted by Paul at the synagogue. These were not Christian meetings, which is why Paul's testimony was rejected there (Acts 18:6).

So please answer my first question, if you can. If you cannot, then please do not claim that the scriptures support your assertion that the early Christians held their meetings on the sabbath day.

Your answer to my second question was that, yes, you are recommending that we attend the Jewish synagogue on sabbath. You said, "What's wrong with a Jewish synagogue?" Well, for one thing, it is an anti-Christian meeting. Judaism is an anti-Christ religion (by the definition given in 1 John 2:22). But do you actually attend a Jewish synagogue on the sabbath? If so, when do you go to church—before or afterward? If you do not, why would you recommend the practice to others? When would you have them go to church?

With reference to my third question, you did not demionstrate that Jesus was a sabbath-keeper. You did demonstrate (what no one ever disputed) that Jesus, like Paul after Him, did go and preach in the synagogue on the sabbath (the only day that He would find an audience there). But preaching in a synagogue is never commanded in the Law, so this does not document that Jesus kept the sabbath in terms of its Old Testament requirements. Can you give a scripture that would make your point on this?

As for your question of whether I have any scriptures to show that the early Christians did NOT meet on the sabbath, that would hardly be my province to provide, since I have never denied that Christian meetings could sometimes have fallen on a sabbath day. But then, I am not the one recommending that Christians meet on any particular day—you are. It is up to you to show that what you require agrees with primitive Christian practice. On the other hand, there is strong evidence that Gentile Christians saw no need to observe sabbath in Paul's observation that some of the Roman Christians "regard every day alike" (Rom.14:5). This could not be said of sabbath observers.

I wrote:

"We know that Paul went to the synagogue to preach on the sabbath, but that was not a meeting of Christians, but of Jews."

To which, for some reason, you replied:

"What were they after they accepted the reality of the Messiah? One with Christ. No more Jew, no more Greek."

What has your answer to do with my observation? I pointed out that the only sabbath meetings that Paul is said to have attended were those of the synagogue (a non-Christian assembly, not a church meeting). Then you tell us that, after people accepted Christ, they were neither Jew nor Gentile. This is true, but what has it to do with the fact that Paul attended meetings of unbelieving Jews—not people who had "accepted Christ"—on the sabbath? Would you please try to understand the questions and give responses that are somewhat relevant?

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Re: Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

Post by RND » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:37 pm

steve wrote:I have altered this post because I first posted it before reading the above post (they must have been posted almost simultaneously).

You did not provide any scripture documenting Christian meetings on the sabbath. The meeting by the river in Philippi was a Jewish congregation (Lydia was a Gentile God-fearer, who attended the Jewish meeting). It is clear that the meeting was not a Christian one, because no one in Philippi had yet heard the gospel. The other examples were also of Jewish outreach conducted by Paul at the synagogue. These were not Christian meetings, which is why Paul was kicked out of them after a couple of weeks.
Steve, Paul was in Philippi for a year and a half. When these Jewish converts accepted Christ as the Messiah they didn't all of a sudden stop going to synagogue.
So please answer my first question, if you can. If you cannot, then please do not claim that the scriptures support your assertion that the early Christians held their meetings on the sabbath day.
Do you have any scripture that show the early Christians didn't keep the sabbath day?
Your answer to my second question was that, yes, you are recommending that we attend the Jewish synagogue on sabbath. You said, "What's wrong with a Jewish synagogue?" Well, for one thing, it is an anti-Christian meeting.
So? If Paul or Peter took that attitude they wouldn't have converted anyone! :D
But do you actually attend a Jewish synagogue on the sabbath?


No, I attend a SDA church on the sabbath.
If so, when do you go to church? If not, why would you recommend the practice to others? When would you have them go to church?
I go to church on the sabbath. And I actually have been a Jewish synagogue before.
You did not demionstrate that Jesus was a sabbath-keeper. You did demonstrate (what no one ever disputed) that Jesus, like Paul after Him) did go and preach in the synagogue on the sabbath (the only day that He would find an audience there). But preaching in a synagogue is never commanded in the Law, so this does not document that Jesus kept the sabbath in terms of its Old Testament requirements. Can you give a scripture that would make your point on this?
It was Jesus' "custom" as in something He did regularly in attending synagogue on sabbath. Being part of a "holy convocation" is not an all day exercise now anymore than it was then.

Act 13:27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled [them] in condemning [him].

Act 15:21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

Just as it is customary to read scripture in our modern day monolithic churches today Steve it was customary to read the Law and the prophets on the sabbath day as well.

A "holy convocation" was required on the seventh day sabbath Steve.

Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day [is] the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work [therein]: it [is] the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.

The word convocation literally means assembly or "called out."

from 'qara'' (7121); something called out, i.e. a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal:--assembly, calling, convocation, reading.

Isn't it interesting that church in Greek is Ekklesia which literally means "called out ones."
As for your question of whether I have any scriptures to show that the early Christians did NOT meet on the sabbath, that would hardly be my province to provide, since I have never denied that Christian meetings could sometimes have fallen on a sabbath day.


So then you agree that Christians met on the sabbath. Outstanding!
But then, I am not the one recommending that Christians meet on any particular day—you are.


I haven't said anything as to when Christians should meet. I'm simply pointing out that Sunday ain't the Sabbath and however many times Hebrews 3 and 4 are misinterpreted they don't say we can meet whenever we want to.
It is up to you to show that what you require agrees with primitive Christian practice.


Steve, I don't require any sabbath observance. God does.
On the other hand, there is strong evidence that Gentile Christians saw no need to observe sabbath in Paul's observation that some of the Roman Christians "regard every day alike" (Rom.14:5). This could not be said of sabbath observers.
Steve, Romans 14 says nothing about the sabbath. It deals with eating foods offered to idols. See 1 Corinthians 10.
I wrote:

"We know that Paul went to the synagogue to preach on the sabbath, but that was not a meeting of Christians, but of Jews."

To which, for some reason, you replied:

"What were they after they accepted the reality of the Messiah? One with Christ. No more Jew, no more Greek."

What has your answer to do with my observation.
Um, that once they accepted Christ as the Messiah the were no longer Jews or gentiles but one with Christ.
I pointed out that the only sabbath meetings that Paul is said to have attended was the synagogue (a non-Christian meeting).


Steve, let me see if I can provide an illustration for you. Let's assume for a second that Paul has entered into an all-Jewish synagogue and speaks the Gospel of Christ by expanding and teaching from the only documents he would have had - the Torah and the Tanakh.

Now, let's say after one session he manages to convert two Jews out of oh, I don't know, ten. Would Paul have told those two he converted, "Don't come back anymore?" Would he have said, "Now that you are converted there is no more sabbath?"

Yet the Bereans spent many a day and night searching the scriptures to see if what Paul was preaching was true.
Then you tell us that, after people accepted Christ, they were neither Jew nor Gentile. This is true, but what has it to do with the fact that Paul attended meetings of unbelieving Jews?


See the above illustration.

Not everyone was convinced by what Paul was preaching right away Steve. Some accepted it readily, with almost no question, some needed additional convincing (weeks, months, years) and some wanted him dead for preaching the Gospel.
Would you please try to understand the questions and give responses that are somewhat relevant?
Steve, I've answered each and every question you've managed to ask with all the skill and muster a poor dummy such as myself can hope to obtain.

Paul didn't just walk into a non-converted Jewish synagogue Steve, magically open his mouth and convert everyone in the room on the spot. It took alot of deft maneuvering though the Torah and Tanakh, through a painstaking profess at times, to demonstrate that Jesus Christ was the promised Messiah. Yet he was able to convert both Jew and gentile at the same time.

I know you don't want to answer the question because you don't think you have too, but just exactly what did Paul do in converting the gentiles that were unfamiliar with the Torah and Tanakh?
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Re: Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

Post by steve » Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:40 pm

RND,

I am not trying to tax your question-answering skills. It is just that you come here with assertions about what the Bible allegedly teaches, then, when your points are cross-examined, and you are asked for the scriptural case for your points, you give either no answer or you give irrelevant scriptures.

If you want to participate in this forum, I suggest that you do one of two things:

1) Learn to understand questions that are asked of you, and to understand arguments, and how to frame your own arguments so that they will support your contentions; or

2) Become a listener, merely, rather than a teacher.

Until you can participate in a discussion as one who can actually show that the scriptures support your position, you will do better not to assert your positions in a forum where they will be challenged with real biblical arguments.

By the way, I do not recognize anything in your above post that resembles an answer to my questions. Please read them again, and answer directly. If there are no scriptures to support your case (which is the case), then there is no shame in saying something like, "I have stated my opinion. Though there is no scripture that directly makes my points, I am still convinced that I am correct." It is the honest approach. You would receive more respect from this correspondent if you chose it occasionally.

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