Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

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RND
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Re: Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

Post by RND » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:06 pm

Allyn wrote:First, I have not once used that comparrison.
You are right. But then again, I never suggested you did. Just used an example.
Second, one is written on our heart and the other is sought in futility to observe because no one can do it and do it perfectly.
The laws of the new covenant were only written in the hearts of those that are either from the house of Israel or the house of Judah. Which one are you?

Also, are you suggesting that because we can not perfectly "observe" the law that it is futility to try? People are going to break the law so we should never arrest or prosecute?

Allyn, the only way to observe the law is through and by the Holy Spirit. To the unconverted it is impossible to do on their own.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Re: Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

Post by Allyn » Mon Feb 23, 2009 2:38 pm

I have not suggested we not try anything. I am suggesting the New Covenant of Christ is Christ. What does God demand of us in the New Covenant that Christ has not already done? If I am a new creation I am certainly not required to stay bound by the old creation.

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Re: Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

Post by RND » Mon Feb 23, 2009 4:45 pm

Allyn wrote:I have not suggested we not try anything. I am suggesting the New Covenant of Christ is Christ.
Hey, I agree! Christ is definately the physical embodiment of the New Covenant!
What does God demand of us in the New Covenant that Christ has not already done?
Well, let's put it this way. Jesus never murdered. Does that mean I'm free to? Jesus never worshiped graven images. Does that mean I'm free to? Jesus never slept with anothers wife. Does that mean I'm free to? Jesus never coveted. Does that mean I'm free to? Jesus never stole anything. Does that mean I'm free to? Jesus never broke the sabbath (contrary to many false beliefs). Does that mean I'm free to?

Nope Allyn, it's only when it comes to the sabbath that we find a necessity to explain it away. Honestly, I'm surprised that more Christians don't take a "Pascal's Wager" view of the sabbath frankly.
If I am a new creation I am certainly not required to stay bound by the old creation.
I agree. However, what's your view of "new" versus "old" creation? Sin is obviously being disobedient towards the will of God. I mean wasn't that Adam and Eve's main problem - disobedience? If the Ten Commandments are the minimum standard by which we can measure God's character and how He expects His government to operate what pray tell does the mere "disobedience" of Adam and Eve represent?

Of course, as we say in the prison ministry I'm a part of...."If you think the Ten Commandments are hard to live up to, try living up to 1 Corinthians 13." The Ten Commandments are baby steps. 1 Corinthians 13 is strong meat indeed.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

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Re: Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

Post by Allyn » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:40 pm

RND wrote:
Allyn wrote:I have not suggested we not try anything. I am suggesting the New Covenant of Christ is Christ.
Hey, I agree! Christ is definately the physical embodiment of the New Covenant!
What does God demand of us in the New Covenant that Christ has not already done?
Well, let's put it this way. Jesus never murdered. Does that mean I'm free to? Jesus never worshiped graven images. Does that mean I'm free to? Jesus never slept with anothers wife. Does that mean I'm free to? Jesus never coveted. Does that mean I'm free to? Jesus never stole anything. Does that mean I'm free to? Jesus never broke the sabbath (contrary to many false beliefs). Does that mean I'm free to?

Nope Allyn, it's only when it comes to the sabbath that we find a necessity to explain it away. Honestly, I'm surprised that more Christians don't take a "Pascal's Wager" view of the sabbath frankly.
If I am a new creation I am certainly not required to stay bound by the old creation.
I agree. However, what's your view of "new" versus "old" creation? Sin is obviously being disobedient towards the will of God. I mean wasn't that Adam and Eve's main problem - disobedience? If the Ten Commandments are the minimum standard by which we can measure God's character and how He expects His government to operate what pray tell does the mere "disobedience" of Adam and Eve represent?

Of course, as we say in the prison ministry I'm a part of...."If you think the Ten Commandments are hard to live up to, try living up to 1 Corinthians 13." The Ten Commandments are baby steps. 1 Corinthians 13 is strong meat indeed.
These are some of the most ridiculous statements I have heard, and all so that you can cling to the original after God has modified it under Christ. You know full well we are not speaking of the moral laws that now are fully part of the new creature in Christ as given through the Holy Spirit and maintained through faith in Him whom we have full hope. Our discussion is on the topic of the Complete Rest we have everyday in Christ versus the one day Sabbath foreshadowing the Substance which is Christ.

I disagree with you one every level if your purpose is to impose upon people what God has satisfied through His Son. If you think you can bring back to life the Death Adam and Eve and by extension all of us had by being obedient then you have not learned what that Death was. Actually God already knew obedience was not what would accomplish our restoration. If that was the case then for Him to sacrifice His Son was the biggest blunder of all time. God has said He couldn't care less about our sacrifice. and our obedience does nothing for the restoring of the soul. Its not us satisfying God but God coming to us. And the propitiation of the Son is what God is all about for our sake. From the very first sin God's plan began to unfold. He choose a people to bring in this plan and He ordained them to purity in order for His plan to be sanctified. You, however, care more for the ceremony then for the object of the ceremony, it seems.
Last edited by Allyn on Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Sabbath Keeping (from "Roman Catholic and The Bible")

Post by RND » Mon Feb 23, 2009 5:52 pm

Allyn wrote:These are some of the most ridiculous statements I have heard,


In what way? This seems like a blanket declaration with no substantive facts to back it up.
and all so that you can cling to the original after God has modified it under Christ.
Hey brother if you can show me where the Ten Commandments were changed, modified or outright eliminated from the NT I'd be happy to consider anything you have to say. In light of the fact that the Ten Commandments have never changed then I'll go with scripture.
You know full well we are not speaking of the moral laws that now are fully part of the new creature in Christ as given through the Holy Spirit and maintained through faith in Him whom we have full hope. Our discussion is on the topic of the Complete Rest we have everyday in Christ versus the one day Sabbath foreshadowing what we have in Christ.
Brother, the sabbath is part of the Ten Commandments, i.e. the Moral law of God. That has to be first and foremost in our discussion. But let's assume for just a second that the entire Mosaic law was "nailed to the cross" for just second. Does that mean I no longer have to show reference for the aged?
I disagree with you one every level if your purpose is to impose upon people what God has satisfied through His Son.
Of course you do Allyn, no biggie. But now you have to ask yourself about Sunday and how that came into existence. Do you agree in principal with the Council of Laodicea then?

"CHRISTIANS (that's you and me) must not judaize (act like Jews) by resting on the Sabbath (Saturday), but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day (Sunday by mistake); and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers (sympathetic to the Torah), let them be anathema from Christ."
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

You Are Israel
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