Christians and the Covid Vaccine

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steve
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by steve » Wed Sep 15, 2021 8:36 pm

Here is some correspondence between an inquirer and myself on this subject, which I posted at my MeWe page:


Does Christian love require being vaccinated?

Dear Steve,

I have tried to get an answer on my own, through prayer, bible study and talking to my husband, kids, and Christian friends. I haven't landed yet and I am so conflicted. I'm hoping you have time to help me with your Biblically based thoughts.

I do NOT want to get vaccinated, but even more, I don't want my refusal to be seen as an act of selfish or callous disregard for the welfare of others, in particular because I don't want my testimony for the Gospel to be disregarded for that reason.

Virginia


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Hi Virginia,

There are many reasons that a Christian, or anyone else, might choose to remain unvaccinated—and why it is not a matter of loving or not loving one's neighbor:

—Though COVID has killed many people, the death rate has been dishonestly inflated (many medical professionals have gone on record about this) and the disease is not really significantly more dangerous to the average person than is the flu—a disease for which many of us have never chosen to be vaccinated, and never had occasion to regret it.

—Human beings are stewards of the bodies God has given us, and must be permitted to make our own informed decisions about what foreign substances we wish to have ingested or injected into our bodies.

—Many thousands of people have died (according to the government's own statistics) from strange complications (usually related to heart failure) immediately after taking the vaccine. It's long-term health risks are entirely unknown. Some have said its real consequences will not be felt by most for about three years after getting the shot. In other words, it has not been adequately tested.

—Everyone has access to the vaccine, so, if they wish to avoid danger, and if they are naive enough to think the vaccine confers no-risk protection, they can get the vaccine without any interference from us.

—The vaccine either works or it does not. If it does, then those who are vaccinated are not at risk of catching or spreading COVID. They therefore have nothing to fear from the unvaccinated. We can't give them the disease. On the other hand, if the vaccine does not protect from the virus, then why should anyone get it, or expect anyone else to get it? (Clue: Latest scientific statements make it clear that the vaccine does not prevent transmission from the vaccinated). In July, 2021, the CDC tracked 469 cases of the those infected in Barnstable County, MA. Significantly, 74% of infections occurred in fully-vaccinated patients, and four out of five of those hospitalized were vaccinated

—"Render to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's," invites the question, "What did Jesus believe to be Caesar's, and what God's?" Certainly, there is no divine mandate given to Caesar to inject potentially dangerous and inadequately-tested biological agents into the bodies of unwilling citizens. On the other hand, the Christian recognizes the stewardship of the body to be a means of giving God what He (not the state) rightfully owns.

—Those who have already had the virus (a very large percentage of the population), and now have the antibodies, are thereby naturally vaccinated. The purpose of any vaccine is to give the recipient antibodies, which a previously-infected person already has. There is a medical opinion that taking the vaccine may actually pose a danger to those already possessing the antibodies. A massive study in Israel (the most-vaccinated country in the world), last month, demonstrated that those naturally possessing the antibodies (because of previous infection) are 13 times better protected from the disease than are those who are vaccinated. Most news agencies prefer not to mention this.

—There are medicines and nutrients that have a very good success rate in preventing or curing COVID patients. The rich and the powerful take these medications (which is possibly why so few deaths have occurred among them from the virus). However, for inexplicable reasons, these same powerful people forbid the publicizing of these therapeutics. Unfortunately for them, and fortunately for us, the news has gotten out anyway. My father, at age 95, with diabetes and high blood pressure (co-morbidities), recovered from COVID while taking Vitamin D3 (5,000 IU), Vitamin C (1,000 mg), Zinc, and Ivermectin. Very many people have found this regimen to work in preventing and/or curing COVID.

—Christians, like all humans, live in a world full or mortal risks. In our world, there are diseases of all kinds; violent criminals; terrorists; reckless drivers; ladders, roofs and cliffs to fall off of; wild animals; hostile nations possessing nuclear weapons; airplane crashes; space junk falling from the sky; etc. The danger of COVID is much less than the sum total of other factors in our world that can kill us or our neighbors. Whenever we get in a car, we take the risk of accidentally killing someone, just like when we go out in public without being vaccinated. Does our love for our neighbors require us to stay indoors lest we accidentally do another harm?

—Any given day, there is a much smaller chance of the average person getting COVID and dying from it than there is of them dying of some other cause. This was true even before the vaccines were developed. Dying is inevitable. We must calculate the respective risks of different options if we wish to be a good steward of our own bodies while being mindful the welfare of our fellowman.

—The COVID vaccine has been wrongfully politicized. The medicine I choose to take is (and has always been) a matter of personal choice, not the choice of politicians. If the government is not seeking to make this a political matter, let them make the vaccine available to all, stop suppressing the information that is the basis for vaccine reluctance, and let humans live their lives, taking their own risks.

Again, if the vaccine really works (it clearly doesn't, but those who want to force it on you seem to think that it does), then the vaccinated cannot be harmed by the unvaccinated. On their own principles, it cannot be unloving for me to remain unvaccinated.

I recently saw a meme that put the matter perfectly. It said: "It is not the responsibility of the unvaccinated to protect the vaccinated. That is the responsibility of the vaccine." Obviously! Why do so few people think this clearly?

In Jesus,
Steve

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Steve,

Thank you Very much, Steve, for taking the time to so thoughtfully respond. You've given it a lot of time, so I don't expect that we can continue this dialogue and I fully understand if you choose not to.

At the same time, I can't rest until my conscience is settled. I am wrestling with worries that my witness for Christ may be compromised with unbelieving friends and family, because of their prevailing fears and perhaps not fully informed pro-vaccine-minds-made-up. They do see it as unloving (adding to their danger with my choice), which makes me seem like a hypocrite if I'm espousing the love of God.

You argued that point well (dangers and ramifications) but if I can't change their minds on that point, do I alleviate their fears by vaccinating, to be part of what they presume to be part of the good fight against Covid, in order for me to be heard when I proclaim Christ?

In your mind, does this qualify as perhaps a sacrifice I should be willing to make, in order to win souls?
Sadly, I am too 'in it' to see the forest for the trees on that issue right now.

Virginia


------------------------------------------

Hi Virginia,

I do not think that unbelievers should be able to dictate to you what Christian love requires. Next they will be saying you would be unloving not to attend a same-sex wedding, or not to celebrate the transition of a friend's daughter to becoming a boy. We are required to do what love requires. However, irrational and immoral people cannot dictate to us what that is. How dare they tell you that you must put a potentially dangerous substance into your body to alleviate their irrational fears? Are they not required to love you as well?

If they want you to respect their irrationality, have you not an equal claim upon their respect for your well-thought-out choices? You may choose to surrender to them in this matter, but they will not stop there. We should serve others with reference to their actual needs, not their self-perceived, imaginary needs. If they can't respect your right to make your own decisions about your own body, then keeping them satisfied will never be possible. If they think that your loving them means you accommodating them, then they can forever be moving the goal posts and making ever more unreasonable demands upon you. Suddenly, you will have become their slave, not Christ's.

Blessings!
Steve Gregg

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Jepne
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by Jepne » Wed Sep 15, 2021 9:45 pm

Excellent, Steve. Thank you so much. I may post it on my social media pages also. Thank you.
"Anything you think you know about God that you can't find in the person of Jesus, you have reason to question.” - anonymous

dwight92070
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by dwight92070 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 10:41 pm

Steve said on his show today that over 7000 have died from the COVID vaccine. Yet, this evil administration wants to mandate that all of us get it??!!!

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Homer
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by Homer » Sat Sep 18, 2021 12:19 am

Steve,

You wrote in reply to Virginia:
—Human beings are stewards of the bodies God has given us, and must be permitted to make our own informed decisions about what foreign substances we wish to have ingested or injected into our bodies.
And we must make our decisions about such matters in accord with the "law of love." In the culture of the West the individual reigns supreme; it is not so in the dyadic cultures of the East where the good of the group is regarded as the priority.
—Many thousands of people have died (according to the government's own statistics) from strange complications (usually related to heart failure) immediately after taking the vaccine. It's long-term health risks are entirely unknown. Some have said its real consequences will not be felt by most for about three years after getting the shot. In other words, it has not been adequately tested.
And Dwight responded:
Steve said on his show today that over 7000 have died from the COVID vaccine. Yet, this evil administration wants to mandate that all of us get it??!!!
Could you share with us the source of your information? According to the CDC the "over 7000" is correct but the cause is suspect. The CDC reports that out of more than 380,000,000 doses there were 7,653 reports of deaths. A review of information including autopsies, medical records, and death certificates has not established any link to Covid vaccines as the cause of death. Given that approximately that number (7,653) die every day in the USA it is not surprising that that number of people would die within a week or two after a covid shot. And the death rate is even higher in the large group of old people prioritized for the vaccine.

"How to Lie with Statistics" has been one of the best selling books about statistics in history and has been a standard textbook in colleges. One section of the book deals with the subject "correlation does not imply causation", the mistake the anti-vaxxers are making.

If the people years ago thought like the anti-vaxxers today (a movement that is growing along with an increase in whooping cough and measles) we would still be battling small pox. Vaccinations for small pox have been discontinued now for 49 years! And measles carries the risk of brain damage and death.

Just reported in the news in a nearby city an outbreak of covid in a long term care facility resulted in the death of one resident and the illness of many. The source of infection has been traced to an unvaccinated employee. If the employee is a Christian, their testimony obviously has certainly been called into question.

I view the vaccine as a gift from God, and the speed with which it was developed, if not a miracle, it was close. Satan would certainly not have come up with it.

For info on the statistics see here:

www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vacci ... vents.html

And I might add Rochelle Walensky, head of the CDC, is a Christian.

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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Sep 18, 2021 7:58 am

Homer,
We have a HUGE issue here with trust. When you consider the people we're dealing with here, it's no surprise that we don't trust them. Biden himself has a history of crooked deals with Ukraine, China, and Russia. His brother and his son, and some say many in his family have taken advantage of him being the vice president for 8 years, to negotiate under-the-table deals with these countries, worth billions. Bill and Hillary did the same, while they were in office. Bill Gates, has apparently been an advocate for population control, for years. What better way to decrease the population in the world than with a pandemic? Fauci helped with funding (with our tax payer dollars) of the Wuhan Chinese lab, apparently knowing what they were "studying" there - using viruses as a weapon. George Soros, a billionaire enemy of capitalism, has been disrupting our country for decades, often interfering with elections across our country. Gates, Fauci, Soros, and now Biden all have their hands dirty with this COVID issue.

Then you add the issue of the 2020 election. There has never been such blatant and widespread cheating in a Presidential election before, and my guess is that 95% of the cheating came from the Democrat side. They could not allow Trump to win again, whether he got the votes or not. The mail-in ballots should never have been allowed. Remember when Election Day was just that, ONE DAY? Now they can vote months ahead, some places even accepted ballots AFTER ELECTION DAY, and then votes don't even have to be fully counted for a month or two. Ballot harvesting is ripe with cheating. Then you had RIGGED ballot machines, that were programmed to CHANGE votes and multiplied thousands were. Republican poll watchers were kept from actually doing their job, and some were not even allowed on the property.

Add to all of that the fact that the majority, if not all, courts in the country, refused to even hear cases about the widespread fraud and cheating. EVEN OUR SUPREME COURT WOULDN'T HEAR THEM, primarily thanks to that crooked man, "Chief Justice" Roberts. SO, ONCE AGAIN, THE REPUBLICANS WERE CHEATED BY NOT EVEN ALLOWING THEM A DAY IN COURT.

If that wasn't enough, the left-wing mainstream MEDIA, most of which are socialists and even communists, did all they could to keep Trump from winning and to ensure that Biden did win. They did GREAT DAMAGE to our country. Then you add Hollywood and ACADEMIA, again pretty much all socialists and communists.

Finally, you have these people in charge, MANDATING THAT YOU EITHER GET THE SHOT, OR LOSE YOUR JOB. That is Communism, pure and simple.

The problem with the so-called "good of the group" is that the group, in this case, is controlled by communists, who only want power, and are not really concerned about the individuals. Look at the hundreds, maybe even thousands, of Americans and Afghan allies, that Biden left behind, to be tortured and killed. All of that could have been avoided, but he didn't care - it's just individuals.

The "good of the group" is not a Christian principle, IMO. The 2nd greatest commandment is to "Love your NEIGHBOR (an INDIVIDUAL, NOT A GROUP) as yourself. Jesus said to "Love ONE (an INDIVIDUAL) another." As it turns out, when we truly love individuals, THIS GREATLY BENEFITS THE LARGER GROUP. But when we put "the group" ahead of the individual, we end up running rough-shod over individuals, even to the point of death, in some cases. The reason the individual "reigns supreme", as you put it, in the West, IS BECAUSE OF CHRISTIANITY IN THE WEST. The reason "the good of the group" has the priority in the EAST, is because of a lack of Christian influence. THE SO-CALLED "GOOD OF THE GROUP", ENDS UP BEING THE DEMANDS OF THOSE EVIL MEN IN POWER.

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Homer
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by Homer » Sat Sep 18, 2021 11:00 am

Hi Dwight,

You do realize we are saved by being part of a group, Christ's body. Reading the following would you consider the body (group) as being less important than the individual member? And remember the Covid vaccines were developed under the Trump administration which changed the process and expedited the vaccines. In the past, the process of developing a vaccine took almost five years. Trump got it done in less than one!

1 Corinthians 12:12-31
New American Standard Bible 1995
12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

14 For the body is not one member, but many. 15 If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 16 And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. 19 If they were all one member, where would the body be? 20 But now there are many members, but one body. 21 And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” 22 On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; 23 and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow
more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, 24 whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, 25 so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. 26 And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. 29 All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? 30 All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? 31 But earnestly desire the greater gifts.


dwight92070
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Sep 18, 2021 10:24 pm

You've got it backwards. We enter into Christ's body AS A RESULT of our being saved, not the other way around. We don't become a part of the body of Christ, in order to get saved. Preachers do not say, "Come and be a part of the body of Christ, so you can get saved." The invitation is NOT to come to the body of Christ, but it IS to come to Christ Himself - as an INDIVIDUAL. Otherwise, many would get the wrong impression - that all they have to do to be saved, is to show up at church, where the body is - and then they're good to go.

Yes, AFTER WE ARE SAVED, WE ARE A PART OF THE BODY OF CHRIST, AND THAT BODY IS GLORIOUS. But we can ONLY enter that body one by one, individually. Which is more important, the body of Christ or one member? That's impossible to answer. If your church (part of the body) was in a boat that was sinking, and there happened to be another man in the boat, not part of your group - and you could only save either the group or the man, which would be your priority? Most would say, "Definitely, I would save the many members of the church body, and not the one man." But what if that man happened to be the Apostle Paul? If you don't save him, then he wouldn't be able to preach the gospel to much of the Roman empire - causing hundreds and even thousands to be saved. So, no, the group is NOT ALWAYS more important than the individual. Only God knows.

I don't know if Trump was in office for the making of all three of the vaccines, but that's really irrelevant, because Biden and his cronies are the ones administering it. But let's assume that Trump had ALL of the vaccines completed before he left office. Does that mean that ALL or even MOST of Trump's supporters would now feel totally safe in getting the vaccine? Not necessarily. Also many people choose not to get it, whether it's safe or not.

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Homer
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by Homer » Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:52 am

Just recently a good and Godly elderly man at our church died from covid. He had long labored at the soup kitchen serving the poor. I do not know if he had been vaccinated or not, but In all likelihood he was infected by someone who was not. Just the other day in the news it was reported that we now have thousands of covid deaths per day, the great majority of whom are unvaccinated. Since over half the population is now vaccinated almost all the infections and deaths are occurring, and being spread, by the unvaccinated. It is a very sad thing to me that any Christians would be part of the anti-vaxxer group. How are they loving their neighbor? They are instead helping this disease to become endemic.

From the CDC in today's news:
A recent CDC study found that between April and July 2021, unvaccinated Americans were nearly five times more likely to be infected with COVID-19, 10 times more likely to end up hospitalized for COVID-related complications, and 11 times more likely to die from COVID-19 than their fully vaccinated counterparts (Another CDC study found that between May 1 and July 25, 2021, unvaccinated residents of Los Angeles County were 29 times more likely to be hospitalized.)
How much more do we need to know?

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darinhouston
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by darinhouston » Mon Sep 27, 2021 12:09 pm

Homer wrote:
Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:52 am
Just recently a good and Godly elderly man at our church died from covid. He had long labored at the soup kitchen serving the poor. I do not know if he had been vaccinated or not, but In all likelihood he was infected by someone who was not. Just the other day in the news it was reported that we now have thousands of covid deaths per day, the great majority of whom are unvaccinated. Since over half the population is now vaccinated almost all the infections and deaths are occurring, and being spread, by the unvaccinated. It is a very sad thing to me that any Christians would be part of the anti-vaxxer group. How are they loving their neighbor? They are instead helping this disease to become endemic.

From the CDC in today's news:
A recent CDC study found that between April and July 2021, unvaccinated Americans were nearly five times more likely to be infected with COVID-19, 10 times more likely to end up hospitalized for COVID-related complications, and 11 times more likely to die from COVID-19 than their fully vaccinated counterparts (Another CDC study found that between May 1 and July 25, 2021, unvaccinated residents of Los Angeles County were 29 times more likely to be hospitalized.)
How much more do we need to know?
First, I'm very sorry for the loss of your co-worker in Christ. But, what makes you think he was infected by someone not vaccinated? It is all but acknowledged even by "Lord Fauci" now that the vaccinated are having viral loads AT LEAST as high as the unvaccinated and often more even if they have no symptoms or are not deathly ill. For those (statistically likely to be the a high percentage of the remaining unvaccinated) who have recovered, it is exceedingly rare to have ANY transmissible viral load.

Please expand your influences and watch especially the differences between infection rates in Norway and Sweden up til now and also what's happened in Israel (one of the highest rate of vaccinations in the world).

I firmly believe that the way the vaccine has been introduced and vaccinating into a pandemic with not only a leaky vaccine which doesn't create neutralizing antibodies even of the original variant but even worse being used now against an "unmatched" variant, the vaccinated are a bigger problem (to others anyway). It has become incontrovertibly essentially and ONLY an individual therapeutic and something of individual choice. Consider only that the government has changed the very definition of vaccination to mean only that you are "providing protection" instead of "producing immunity" from a disease.

This most recent peer reviewed article in a respectable journal surveys some of the most recent findings and you may find it counter to the narrative you are being spoon-fed by our media and our government. The title is a bit too specific -- it's about way more than vaccinating children. Some epidemiologists have pointed out that if you look holistically at the entirety of the program, we are causing twice the number of deaths by the vaccination program than we are saving.

"Why are we vaccinating children against COVID-19?"
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 002100161X


Here's a take-away...
A novel best-case scenario cost-benefit analysis showed very conservatively that there are five times the number of deaths attributable to each inoculation vs those attributable to COVID-19 in the most vulnerable 65+ de- mographic. The risk of death from COVID-19 decreases drastically as age decreases, and the longer-term effects of the inoculations on lower age groups will increase their risk-benefit ratio, perhaps substantially.

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darinhouston
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Re: Christians and the Covid Vaccine

Post by darinhouston » Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:59 pm

JUST IN - Harvard Business School moves classes online as COVID-19 "breakthrough" cases soar despite a 95% vaccination rate among students and staff.

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