Destroying The Righteous With The Wicked

Right & Wrong
User avatar
steve
Posts: 3338
Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:45 pm

Re: Destroying The Righteous With The Wicked

Post by steve » Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:03 pm

Horses, of course, in the Middle East, were not pets or recreational vehicles, as they are for many today. They weren't even a primary means of transportation (as they were in our "Old West"). That role was relegated to camels and donkeys.

Horses were strictly military vehicles. The strength of an army was measured in the number of its horses (Psalm 20:7; 33:16-17; Prov.21:31; Isa.31:1). David, of course, could have "confiscated" the horses of his slain enemies, rather than hamstringing them. This would have added to his own military might. However, it seems probable that he had as many horses as he needed, and might not have had sufficient riders available to double the size of his cavalry. He might even have avoided taking more horses than he needed out of mindfulness toward the law governing the kings of Israel (Deuteronomy 17:16), which his son Solomon completely ignored.

If David had no intention, or ability, of incorporating these enemies' horses into his own cavalry or chariot forces, then there would be no argument for keeping them alive. I understand that a horse eats about 30 pounds of food a day. Supporting numerous unneeded horses would present a considerable burden—with no upside. This would seem to explain why David hamstrung the unwanted horses. Hamstringing horses was less labor-intensive (though also less humane) than killing them quickly. Without a gun, killing a horse directly would require considerable strength and expenditure of energy that warriors my put to better use. It seems cruel to us (we are a society much more sensitized to "animal rights" and animal suffering), but a knick of the tendon was much more energy-efficient than the force it would take to kill with a sword, or by the wasting of a good arrow, needed for the dispatching of more important enemies.

A hamstrung horse would either die slowly of starvation, or, more quickly, by predators. A hamstrung horse was a crippled horse, and could not be acquired and used by an enemy in future wars against David.

User avatar
TK
Posts: 1475
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2008 8:42 pm
Location: North Carolina

Re: Destroying The Righteous With The Wicked

Post by TK » Tue Jul 03, 2018 6:19 am

Thanks Steve-

That verse came up in our Bible study Sunday in 2 Samuel 8-9. It seemed to bother more people than the idea that David had the POWs line up, took a length of string, and measured out the prisoners with it-- every two lengths of string were killed and every one length spared. I imagine the POWs were scrambling to get within the one length.

I also read some commentary talking about how God did not want David to trust in his military might, which chariots and horses would obviously increase to his advantage.

As with so many things, be it "social justice" or whatever, it seems unwise to hold the people of yesterday to the PC standards of today.

crgfstr1
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:55 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

Re: Destroying The Righteous With The Wicked

Post by crgfstr1 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:09 am

robbyyoung wrote:...

Hello my friend,

Yes, I understand your reply, however you did not address how Lot was more righteous than children or infants. Moreover, God said all children and infants were in-fact more wicked than Lot. Was there not one baby or infant that Lot and his family could have adopted into their own to escape judgment. For goodness sake, the angels practically had to drag Lot and his family out of the city, due to their meandering and apparent care for it. Thus, respectfully, what is your answer to the rest of the ethical story concerning the righteous judge of all the earth? Abraham's inquiry is our own, but God surmised, children and infants were not righteous, so how would you explain this moral and ethical conclusion against Lot's behavior?

Moreover, arguments concerning foreknowledge of sin is contradictory to Lot and his daughters sinful behaviors, yet they were declared righteous? Didn't God know Lot's wife would disobey His command and perish? Or, Lot would offer his daughters up to be viciously ravished? Yet, they were more righteous than an infant? This seems to be a non-sequitur. There seems to be a missing piece to this puzzle, both ethically and morally.

Blessings.
I believe it is impossible for us to fully comprehend how there could be justice in this world. Why are some born to good Christian parents while others are born to those who worship idols, false gods or even Satan? Some Angles are purely good while others completely evil. I see two possible answers:

1) God being all knowing (which our human minds can scarcely grasp) considered what each person would do from the foundation of the earth and came up with a perfectly just plan. This plan includes the best possible outcome for all. Satan having seen God still became completely evil. I believe God must have known that even if these babies had grown up and seen God they would have rejected him or they are saved as being before the age of reason.

2) Another possibility is that as both the creator and savior it just that He decide to whom he will show favor and to whom he wont. After all it is only out of His great mercy that any of us are saved. None of us deserve it.

He is certainly entitled to 2. Because he is Love I believe 1 is also true.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 4901
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Destroying The Righteous With The Wicked

Post by Paidion » Tue Jul 03, 2018 5:30 pm

crg wrote:1) God being all knowing (which our human minds can scarcely grasp) considered what each person would do from the foundation of the earth and came up with a perfectly just plan.
God is all-knowing. That is beyond dispute. But to know in advance what a free-will agent will choose is a contradiction. It is in the same category as saying that God is all-powerful, and thus He can create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it.

If God knows in advance what a person will choose then that person does not have free will. Suppose God knows in advance that you will eat an apple tomorrow. If that is actually true, then you CANNOT refrain from eating an apple tomorrow. For if, out of your own free will, you DO refrain from eating an apple tomorrow, then God DOESN'T KNOW that you will eat an apple tomorrow.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 81.

crgfstr1
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:55 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

Re: Destroying The Righteous With The Wicked

Post by crgfstr1 » Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:05 pm

Paidion wrote: God is all-knowing. That is beyond dispute. But to know in advance what a free-will agent will choose is a contradiction. It is in the same category as saying that God is all-powerful, and thus He can create a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it.

If God knows in advance what a person will choose then that person does not have free will. Suppose God knows in advance that you will eat an apple tomorrow. If that is actually true, then you CANNOT refrain from eating an apple tomorrow. For if, out of your own free will, you DO refrain from eating an apple tomorrow, then God DOESN'T KNOW that you will eat an apple tomorrow.
Thank you Paidion. I always like when you chime in but I don't always agree with what you believe. It does force me to think about it more. I think you and I see "all" as two different things. For me "all" includes the future and that God the Father is outside of time. This to me does not mean he chose it as we were still free to choose. He just has already experienced judgement day (and imagined all of the different scenarios and what those judgment days would look like). This makes him a very great and powerful God that the human mind can scarcely comprehend.

I don't know the bible well enough (yet) to point to any scripture that might have lead me to this belief. We do know that the father knows at least when the day of judgement will be.

crgfstr1
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:55 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

Re: Destroying The Righteous With The Wicked

Post by crgfstr1 » Wed Jul 04, 2018 6:25 pm

robbyyoung wrote:
Moreover, arguments concerning foreknowledge of sin is contradictory to Lot and his daughters sinful behaviors, yet they were declared righteous? Didn't God know Lot's wife would disobey His command and perish? Or, Lot would offer his daughters up to be viciously ravished? Yet, they were more righteous than an infant? This seems to be a non-sequitur. There seems to be a missing piece to this puzzle, both ethically and morally.

Blessings.
Maybe I missed where the daughters and the wife were declared righteous. Gen 19:16 says they were brought out of mercy to Lot. I don't know if that helps this at all though.

User avatar
Paidion
Posts: 4901
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 10:22 pm
Location: Back Woods of North-Western Ontario

Re: Destroying The Righteous With The Wicked

Post by Paidion » Wed Jul 04, 2018 10:04 pm

2 Peter 2 (ESV)
5 if he did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a herald of righteousness, with seven others, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6 if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly;
7 and if he rescued righteous Lot, greatly distressed by the sensual conduct of the wicked
8 (for as that righteous man lived among them day after day, he was tormenting his righteous soul over their lawless deeds that he saw and heard);
9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment until the day of judgment,
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 81.

User avatar
robbyyoung
Posts: 811
Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2013 2:23 am

Re: Destroying The Righteous With The Wicked

Post by robbyyoung » Thu Jul 05, 2018 8:46 am

crgfstr1 wrote:
robbyyoung wrote:
Moreover, arguments concerning foreknowledge of sin is contradictory to Lot and his daughters sinful behaviors, yet they were declared righteous? Didn't God know Lot's wife would disobey His command and perish? Or, Lot would offer his daughters up to be viciously ravished? Yet, they were more righteous than an infant? This seems to be a non-sequitur. There seems to be a missing piece to this puzzle, both ethically and morally.

Blessings.
Maybe I missed where the daughters and the wife were declared righteous. Gen 19:16 says they were brought out of mercy to Lot. I don't know if that helps this at all though.
Hi crgfstr1,

Thanks for your feedback that corrects the intricacies of the story. However, it’s ironic how 2 Peter 2:7 contends how greatly distressed Lot was over the sensual wickedness of the people but then, through capitulating to the inhabitant's sensual wickedness, he offered his daughters to be ravished, raped, and brutalized. Nevertheless, I accept Lot was overall righteous, but he clearly wasn’t in this instance. I don't believe out of all the options he had, sacrificing his daughters was a "righteous" act. No, that was sinful. If not, why not?

I agree with the righteous, wicked, and innocent argument, but the innocent could have also been brought out of the city “out of mercy to Lot”. But, God clearly chose not to do it, therefore I must accept His purpose and judgments. Again, these are hard truths that happen throughout the earth on a daily basis. The innocent is destroyed with the wicked every single day.

Blessings.

User avatar
Homer
Posts: 2598
Joined: Sat Aug 23, 2008 11:08 pm

Re: Destroying The Righteous With The Wicked

Post by Homer » Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:30 am

The innocent is destroyed with the wicked every single day.
And this is something to think about. When God judged Israel He didn't sort the good from the bad. With all the abortion, pornography, gay marriage, etc. he may be about to put the hammer down on the USA.

crgfstr1
Posts: 139
Joined: Sun Aug 02, 2015 8:55 am
Location: Santa Cruz, CA

Re: Destroying The Righteous With The Wicked

Post by crgfstr1 » Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:02 am

robbyyoung wrote:...

I agree with the righteous, wicked, and innocent argument, but the innocent could have also been brought out of the city “out of mercy to Lot”. But, God clearly chose not to do it, therefore I must accept His purpose and judgments. Again, these are hard truths that happen throughout the earth on a daily basis. The innocent is destroyed with the wicked every single day.

Blessings.
It is likely that Lot was unwilling to leave without his wife and daughters. If I were in the same boat, and it wasn't a sin to stay and die with my family, I would likely stay. After all the next step is heaven so better to go there then live a life w/o them. Similarly I would not require God bring everyone in order to go. As Homer points out we may be about to find out soon how all of this works in our lives.

We focus on death as if it were the worst thing when God has already fixed that. Thinking about this has made me wonder. Why was Lot's wife turned to a pillar of salt. We see this as a bad judgement, but we are the salt of the earth. Maybe it was a sign to Lot that he had purified his wife and returned her to Him because she would live in torment if she remained.

Post Reply

Return to “Ethics”