Guns, self-defense and Christians

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Sean
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Re: Guns, self-defense and Christians

Post by Sean » Fri May 13, 2011 2:21 am

schoel wrote:Sean - Great post!


Well I'm just trying to post my thoughts on the issue. I've thought about it a lot, listened to both sides debate the issue, and wonder myself what I would or should do in these situations.
schoel wrote: In bringing up the "love Jesus spoke about", it begs the question - Love for whom? I have a responsibility to love my wife and a responsibility to love the attacker. When in a situation where acting on my love for one results in harm or violence for the other, how do I choose?
Do what Jesus and all the early followers did. Commit yourself to God. Let Him protect you. This seems to be the right answer, but even Jesus sweat great drops of blood over what seems to be a very similar issue. Just to be clear, I'm not saying you can't stop someone. I'm saying I don't know if we should kill to stop someone.
schoel wrote: Jesus refusal to act in his own defense (calling the angels) and his halting the violence of Peter, differ from the above scenario you describe in 2 ways -
1) Jesus was certain of his calling to go to the cross, based on revelations given him over the course of his life, especially his Gethsemane prayer. Any defense against that was to disobey God's calling.
2) Jesus was the object of the aggression. He chose to not defend himself. He convinces the aggressive party of soldiers to let the disciples go (even though a good number of them had already run out on him). While he didn't employ violence, he did actively work to let them escape.
#1 Yet we are called to take up our cross and walk as Jesus did. Jesus warned us that people would treat us the way He was treated. Well, not if we can help it I guess. :D Do we really deserve better than Jesus? Did He suffer so we did not have to. Paul said: "for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus". I know, I know. This was Paul speaking about himself. But this is Paul following in Jesus footsteps. He didn't expect to get out of seeing himself or his friends suffer. Unless protecting your family to the point of killing someone is in fact a higher calling. I'm just not so sure.

#2 Seems to have been a great non-violent solution to the problem.
schoel wrote: The apostles were murdered by the state, or mobs in circumstances that seemed to offer no hope of escape from any sort of self defense. In Steve's article (linked above), he makes a case that when confronted with an aggressive situation where the only outcome of self defense is to "kill as many as possible before killed", this sort of self defense isn't biblical, moral or even reasonable.
I'm not sure any sort of self defense killing is biblical. Can someone just provide one verse that gives a command that goes in this direction? Calling it love seems desperate, since all violence can fall into this category, and politically speaking usually does. Were invading other countries to bring those poor oppressed people democracy, because that's the loving thing to do, isn't it? Why don't people go and kill abortion doctors? Don't they love the unborn? Aren't we going to be judged for not protecting them? Don't we love them? James said those who know the good they ought to do but don't do it is sin. Or do we only defend our family? Where do we draw the line?

I thought the loving thing to do is bring the lost the gospel? This is the unique role for the church. The unique role for the state is to bear the sword.

Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

The kind of love Paul spoke of does no harm to his neighbor. Does killing an aggressor and sending him to "hell" cause him any harm?

If someone kills my wife, how has she suffered any worse a fate that many who have come before her? Does she deserve better?

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 36 As it is written:
“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”


Tough words, but true words. Didn't Paul think of the situation we are discussing? Or does this passage answer the question.
schoel wrote: Vengeance is different from self defense.

Self defense - An aggressor is coming for your family member. If you do nothing, he will cause harm to them in a matter of seconds.
Vengeance - Tracking down an aggressor later and shooting him or an aggressor is no longer a threat to your family but you choose to harm him anyway.
I'm not sure I agree. To repay evil for evil or insult for insult is exactly what is being done when an aggressor invades the home and you react in kind. Your repaying an act of aggression with another act of aggression. It seems technically valid, but I can see how someone would say it's not what was meant in this context, etc. Yet I can't find a place that grants permission to act violently against an aggressor. All we read about is the opposite, so I'm having a hard time believing it's acceptable. Even in Israel's past, there were times when (Jeremiah, I believe) told Israel to surrender without fighting to protect their own families & nation. The right thing in this case was not to fight. Was that then an example of not loving their families if they did surrender?
schoel wrote:
Fifth, couldn't Jesus have sent 12 legions of angels down to save the apostles and other righteous people who were killed? It certainly seems Jesus could have protected His apostles but instead He let them die. Does this mean Jesus didn't "love" them because He could have protected them from harm but did not? Yet we are told Christ loves the church. She is His bride. Apparently this does not mean love equates to killing aggressors who seek to take your life or the life of your loved ones.
I swapped the order because this makes your best argument.
It presents the question - "If God doesn't save them, am I interfering with his plan by coming to their defense?"
An issue surfaces - How would I ever know if God wants to save them or not? Perhaps, I'm there as the plan of God to save them?
And this is why a non-lethal view of self defense seems best. Otherwise you might also be part of "God's plan" to save all the unborn babies using violent means as well. I don't ever see a time when the sheep should be worried about the Shepherd's job. Either our Husband (Jesus) knows what's best for His bride and can protect her or He has abandoned us to fend for ourselves until He returns.
schoel wrote: Bottom line for me so far -
While disciples of Christ are required to entrust everything to God, we are also called to act on our and other's behalf. For instance, I know that God is the ultimate provider for myself and my family, I don't just wait around for money and food to fall from the sky.
When faced with an aggressor that threatens my family, is it trust in God to do nothing, or is it negligence?
This is commonly brought up. To do nothing. Are you really thinking that there are only two options? Shoot or do nothing? How about talking to and trying to figure out a way to disarm the person? How about trying to take the weapon when they are distracted? There are many ways to try and protect loved ones without resorting to killing the person for whom Christ died. He may not get a second chance.
schoel wrote: All this issue wrestling is tough... :)
[/quote]

And so am I. I'm trying to make the best points I can so I can get the best feedback I can. That way I'm not just wrestling with myself about this. :)
He will not fail nor be discouraged till He has established justice in the earth. (Isaiah 42:4)

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Joan
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Re: Guns, self-defense and Christians

Post by Joan » Fri May 13, 2011 2:53 am

I just read Steve's essay. He says what I wanted to say (and what I'm hearing you say, TK), only much so much more thoroughly. I also recognize that while I may have an opinion on what is the best way to deal with violence when I encounter it, what I most need is the Lord's leading in the midst of the crisis. How glad I am to know He is faithful to provide it!
Last edited by Joan on Sat May 14, 2011 3:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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TK
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Re: Guns, self-defense and Christians

Post by TK » Fri May 13, 2011 8:27 am

I dont know guys- preaching the gospel to a thug while he is slaughtering my family rather than protecting them (if I could) seems a bit much-- and I truly think the Lord would be appalled by such a thing. I think that is stretching scripture to the breaking point.

I know that this is the most extreme case- but that is the case that schoel brought up.

There are a multitude of less dire cases where i DO believe we should turn the other cheek and take the higher ground and the narrower path.

But come on now- I cannot believe Jesus would expect any man, or woman, to stand by and allow their family to be murdered if they had some power to stop this from happening. If a robber attacked Mary physically, I believe Jesus would have protected her.

If this is the unbiblical response on my part, then unfortunately this is one area in which i have not properly surrendered. I just dont believe the Bible teaches this.

TK

steve7150
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Re: Guns, self-defense and Christians

Post by steve7150 » Fri May 13, 2011 10:07 am

If this is the unbiblical response on my part, then unfortunately this is one area in which i have not properly surrendered. I just dont believe the Bible teaches this.







Yeah i kind of don't get it, a wife is supposed to submit to her husband so that he can stand by and let her and the kids get murdered because we are concerned the murderer may go to hell if he may be killed?

thrombomodulin
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Re: Guns, self-defense and Christians

Post by thrombomodulin » Fri May 13, 2011 7:40 pm

In Matthew 5:38 Jesus references Exodus 23:24. The OT passage begins in v23 with "life for life", but Jesus did not quote this part of the verse. Perhaps this lends some support in favor of the idea that "lesser" forms of aggression should involve turning the other check, while greater forms of aggression such a murder would be met with resistance?
look2jesus wrote: Just one more thought to add to this discussion. We all seem to agree that the government does have an authoritative role to play in the carrying out of justice. But if I'm in the jury box in a capitol punishment case, as a Christian, am I at liberty (if I believe the evidence is incontrovertable that the party is guilty) to cast my vote and take part in sentencing a person to death. Or should I simply refuse to be a juror in a capitol case on the grounds of religious conviction?
There is a concept called "Jury Nullification" that could be used in this and similar situations. The idea is that the role of a juror is not solely to determine guilt or innocence of the accused. The juror is also responsible for judging the justice of the law itself. It the law is unjust, or demands an unjust punishment the juror declares "not guilty" on the basis that the law is unjust, not on the basis the whether the accusation is true or false. The idea has been seen by some as an important means by which citizens could defend themselves against a tyrannous government.

Edit to add link : http://www.njweedman.com/history_of_jur ... cation.htm

alaskazimm
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Re: Guns, self-defense and Christians

Post by alaskazimm » Sat May 14, 2011 3:44 am

Sean wrote: #1 Yet we are called to take up our cross and walk as Jesus did. Jesus warned us that people would treat us the way He was treated. Well, not if we can help it I guess. :D Do we really deserve better than Jesus? Did He suffer so we did not have to. Paul said: "for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus". I know, I know. This was Paul speaking about himself. But this is Paul following in Jesus footsteps. He didn't expect to get out of seeing himself or his friends suffer. Unless protecting your family to the point of killing someone is in fact a higher calling. I'm just not so sure.
Yes, we are to take up our cross and walk as Jesus walked. And we can expect to be treated as Jesus was treated. However, I think Jesus is speaking of suffering for His name - not merely suffering injury at the hands of a criminal. These two are separate issues in my mind. If someone tries to injure my family simply for robbery, then I will do what I need to do to protect my family, including lethal force. But if that same person is trying to kill or injure us because we are followers of Jesus, then I pray that I have the strength to suffer for His name.

I don't have any scriptures that speak to this in mind so it's more of a philosophical argument, I think; and one that (imo) doesn't violate the Christian ethics.

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TK
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Re: Guns, self-defense and Christians

Post by TK » Sat May 14, 2011 7:29 am

Alasakazimm wrote:
But if that same person is trying to kill or injure us because we are followers of Jesus, then I pray that I have the strength to suffer for His name.
I agree with this. It would be hard to imagine someone like Jim Elliott "fighting back" in the face of martyrdom. Missionaries "assume the risk" of being martyred.

It is harder to imagine something happening like this in the US, although there may be a day not very far off when it might be more frequent.

TK

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christopher
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Re: Guns, self-defense and Christians

Post by christopher » Sun May 15, 2011 12:15 pm

Hi Dave,

I have a few thoughts on this.

I wrestled with this issue a few years back myself. I bought a hand-gun when my first son was about 3, mostly as protection while we were hiking in the woods. It wasn't meant for people, but our ever-growing cougar population up here. I wanted to be able to thwart an attack on my son (which is kind of silly when you think about how stealthy cougars are and that they always attack from the rear, but still I wanted to at least have a chance).

Anyway, home protection, and even protection while out and about began to come up in my mind as well. I got a concealed hand-gun license and began packin'. I soon began noticing something strange happening. I was getting obsessed and paranoid. I often thought about worst case scenarios and what I'd do. I noticed that I began seeing 'bad guys' ready to jump me and my family around every corner. Needless to say, my imagination got the better of me.

I came to realize a few things during this period:

1) Hand guns make lousy home protection. It seems to me a dog would make better home defense than my pistol. If you're a responsible gun owner, the gun will usually be locked in a safe, unloaded to keep it out of the hands of those who shouldn't have access to it (kids and thieves). In a break-in situation, I would think it be very difficult to access the gun in time. In all the situations that my wife heard a "noise", I've never bothered to get my gun...I'm just sayin'.

2) In the heat of a situation, it's very hard to even hit a target with a hand-gun. I can't remember what the exact statistics are, but it's something like 90% of all shots fired in a gun fight miss the target, even at close range and even by trained law enforcement.

3) You can't necessarily "shoot to maim" or "shoot to kill". There's people that die from gunshots to the leg, and those that live from gunshots to the head. You don't get to decide who lives or dies from a gun shot no matter where you are aiming.

4) Modern technology is making it easier to protect the home non-lethally. People who invade homes are generally looking to do so unnoticed. There are an abundance of security products out there that significantly reduce the likelihood of break-in.

5) The odds of my house actually being targeted are statistically astronomical.

This last point gave me a lot of perspective. Since realizing this, I've had a lot more peace and my gun lives mostly forgotten and in the safe. I only take it out for target shooting and backpacking trips. I'm glad I have it, and I'm glad I still have the right to own it. But as far as home protection, I don't see myself ever needing it for that purpose. I probably could have better spent the money on a security system...but.

I realize that this doesn't present a biblical case either for or against home self-defense. But I think this is one of those issues that Christians have liberty to decide for themselves based on their conscience before God. I've heard great arguments on both sides.

Lord bless.

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Re: Guns, self-defense and Christians

Post by steve » Sun May 15, 2011 1:25 pm

Christopher,

Good observations.

My experience parallels yours, to a large degree. I bought firearms when moving to Idaho, with a mind of maintaining my family's safety in the woods, as cougars and bears had both been seen on or near our property. However, I never ended up seeing any such critters.

I still own a handgun, but it is locked in a safe in a storage unit. I am loathe to part with it permanently since I can imagine scenarios in the future in which I might want it for the same reasons for which I originally bought it, and I keep thinking that it may become difficult (or illegal) to obtain firearms in the future. The gun would be totally useless to me for defending myself against an aggressor, since I do not even keep it in the house, nor on my person.

When it comes to non-lethal self defense (even against animals) pepper spray and/or a Tazer would seem to be preferable. Both have good stopping power (guns sometimes do not), and neither device does permanent harm to the man or animal on the receiving end. If a Christian is totally against offering any form of resistance to attackers, then these devices would not be acceptable to him, but for those who believe that painful, but not lethal, forms of family protection are consistent with Christian love, these options leave little to which to object.

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Joan
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Re: Guns, self-defense and Christians

Post by Joan » Sun May 15, 2011 2:53 pm

Wow, you guys, very well put, and I agree 100%.

I used to to take my camera and a horse into the woods, or sometimes just go hiking. I felt vulnerable to cougars and human predators, and thought a lot about purchasing a handgun. Growing up with rifles, I wasn't afraid to own one, but in the end decided against it because I knew I could never be quick enough to get it into my hand and pointed in time to save myself in a bad situation, anyway. I did see a cougar once, and a bear stepped out on the path in front of me another time. Once while walking in the dark I found myself almost face-to-face with a very large growling thing (I couldn't see it but guessed it was a bear), and another time while walking a mountain road under the stars, I realized I was being tracked from behind by a medum-large creature in the woods a little to my right and not very far behind me (probably a cougar). I met predators of the human kind once, also. I was riding horses in the forest with a friend one day, when we encountered a group of men picking mushrooms. They blocked our path, surrounded my friend and me, and one of the men took hold of Jeannie's horse's reins. Kicking up my horse from behind her, I said quietly, "RUN, Jeannie!!" She kicked up her horse and jerked away, and I bulldozed through on mine (from then on, we brought a big dog with us on our rides).

For several years I had a job that had me often alone in houses with one or more workmen also on site, and at times, no one knew knew I was there (to know where to look for me if I disappeared). I had a scare when working in the basement of such a house in a remote area one day, when I noticed out of the corner of my eye that the owner of the house was creeping up behind me. Turning, I gathered up my tools and marched briskly past him to the stairs, and left. Why didn't he grab me? The Lord didn't let him. I could name another half dozen similar stories. I did seriously consider purchasing a small handgun to keep in my pocket from then on, but not long after, was laid off from my job, anyway.

In at least three or four of these cases, it's reasonable to say that the story should have ended in disaster, but it didn't. I can say the same of other sorts of situations, such as near auto accidents that SHOULD have happened, that would likely have been fatal had they happened. God intervened because my time was 'not yet.' When it IS my time, well, I'll be most happy to go. I just hope it's fast and easy.

You are my hiding place;
You shall preserve me from trouble;
You shall surround me with songs of deliverance.
Psalm 32:7

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