The Narrow Path Ministries

Hi. This is a question about one of Steve's topical sermons, and I was wondering if Steve might have time to post an answer, although others' thoughts would of course be welcome as well. I've started to listen to his "biblical counsel for a change" series of lectures, and have just completed the first lecture in the series, which deals largely with psychiatry, the "medical model" of behavioral problems, etc. I agree with much of this but I wasn't clear from the lecture how far your go in this approach. At times it sounded like you reject a "medical model" in every case. The example I had in mind is someone who starts to suffer from a crippling "clinical depression." (This example is purely hypothetical -- by the grace of God neither I nor anyone in my family has yet suffered from such a condition.) I think there's pretty good evidence that if you take certain medications, many people can get rid of, or at least greatly ameliorate, the depression and return to a normal life. Is it your view that accepting a diagnosis of clinical depression and taking commonly prescribed drugs to treat it is counter-biblical or otherwise improper?

Just curious how far your views in this area go.

Thanks for your consideration, and best regards. I've told you before how highly I esteem you and how much I get out of your teachings.

CThomas

I think you will find answers to these questions in the lectures you have not yet heard. The brief answer is this:

1) If there is a physiological cause of depression, it should be regarded as a medical condition (but not a psychiatric condition). A medical condition is one where something can be medically diagnosed as being wrong with the body‚ e.g., thyroid disorder, wrong blood sugar levels, brain tumor, etc. Such conditions can be treated by therapies that make medical sense in relation to the body's needs—e.g., thyroid replacement, dietary adjustment, insulin therapy, brain surgery, etc. In such cases, there is a condition that is known to be physical, and which is treated with medical interventions that correct the problem.

2) By contrast, psychiatric "illnesses" cannot be shown to be physical in any sense, nor do the drugs given for them address any known physical deficiency (e.g., manic-depressives do not have a lithium deficiency, since the body does not need lithium for normal functioning; children diagnosed with ADD do not have a Ritalin imbalance; etc.). The drugs affect the function of the brain, usually blocking some of its normal functioning. They do not correct a demonstrated physical abnormality. They may alter moods, but so will a pint of Jack Daniels. Since medical science cannot even tell why these drugs "work" (that is, why they get superficially desirable results), and since they often bring dangerous side effects and paradoxical symptoms, one can hardly argue that they are God's gift to tormented souls. In general, I do not think pharmaceuticals should be ingested unless it can be shown that they do no harm, or that they play a role in returning one's body to normal health. Even then, they would not be my first choice of treatments.

3) Since psychiatric medications modify the brain's functioning, and therefore, alter the mind and moods (without addressing any genuine medical condition), they seem to be intruding into the realm of spirituality. They may be masking problems that are spiritual at their root, and which one should be confronting through spiritual disciplines. I do not take a simplistic approach to this. Problems may be "spiritual in origin" in more than one sense. They may be caused by demonic spirits. They may be caused by neglect of one's own spiritual responsibilities—e.g., failure to forgive; refusal to trust God; idols in the heart; unthankfulness; rebellion against cross-bearing; concealing a shameful secret; etc.

There is not a one-size-fits-all answer to the issues of depression or other problems that are commonly categorized as "psychiatric" in nature. Without fear of being too "conspiratorial," I can comfortably say that the whole profession of psychiatry has very sinister origins and is largely a pawn of big pharmaceutical companies. It has ruined very many lives.

Thanks very much, Steve. I didn't realize that the rest of the series continued to explicate this question or I would have been more patient. Very interesting stuff.

CThomas

I have an aunt who has been a devout Christian since she was a child (raised with my mom in a strong christian home) but she has suffered bouts of crippling depression for about 10 years. It waxes and wanes, but even during the good periods she is not the same as she used to be. Quite frankly it is a total mystery, i.e we don't know the cause or what brought it about. It may have roots in some of the things Steve mentions but there is nothing obvious. It just seemed to come out of nowhere. She does take medication, which seems to treat the symptoms at times, but obviously nothing has "cured" her. Depression like she has is a mystery to me, and whether it has a physical, spiritual or psychological cause, I have no idea.

TK

I share your frustration, TK. These problems are truly mysterious. Sometimes the medications provide just enough improvement to encourage the "patient" to keep taking them. Other times it seems that the medication is useless, or worse. The fact that our secular culture is so unfamiliar with the spiritual realm means that, if the problem were spiritual, it would most likely be mysterious to us.

I tread lightly into this subject matter since I know little about it.

I just wanted to share a point of view that I heard from a psychiatrist who is also a Christian. He said that emotional disorders are similar to having a stroke. After a stroke your brain is not able to control certain limbs on your body in the same fashion. He would argue that certain disorders are defects whereby emotions aren't controlled properly by the brain. He thinks that medicine can help remedy this. He also said that he has encountered demonic oppression as a cause as well. He sees himself as treating both physical and spiritual issues (whichever may apply in a certain case).

Here's his website:

http://www.drgrantmullen.com/

This is an interesting topic and controversial topic. I was against using depression medicating drugs for almost all of my Christian life. I attended Steve's school and understood why Christians shouldn't use these drugs and I understand that pharmaceutical companies are evil. However, I met a girl who became my wife who had suffered with depression for literally most of her life. She had one time in college gotten prescribed prozac or another such pill and I firmly warned her not to take them and she agreed and threw them away. We prayed against the depression everyday, she was prayed over, she changed her diet, she exercises regularly and yet she was still maniacally depressed for the first seven years of our marriage. Finally in an act of desperation last year we decided she could get on anti depressants. Within two weeks her depression was completely gone, she has no side effects, and has never been this emotionally stable in her entire life. One of the biggest regrets of my life is not allowing her to get on those pills in college. Say what you will about depression pills but after 16 years of being depressed she was freed from it in a matter of days. I'm not disputing the spiritual side of mental illness and that the pills aren't perfect but at some point you have to do what you have to do.

thanks for that post, Jaimassee. i suspect there are many Christians who have a similar experience.

obviously the prozac must be doing something which seems to be correcting the problem. whether this means there is a physical (medical) underlying cause becomes the question.

TK

I've been a Christian my whole life. My faith has been real for a long time, especially after a few small but pivotal miraculous experiences.

- I'd never had a girlfriend my entire life and had no prospects for ever doing so.
- I'd failed to connect at the local church and was uninvited from the food ministry--by email.
- I had no nearby friends and my previous best friend had hurt me deeply. I'd lost several other friends, at least in part due to my depression and their fear of it and lack of understanding. (E.g., I'm not your psychiatrist, one said.)
- My picture of God was severely distorted by a distant, neglectful, emotionally incapable father who never even knew I was being persistently and horribly abused at school by the other kids, and never did anything about it.
- My parents were abusive. Once when I was 5, my 12-year-old sister counted me receiving 50 spanks in the other room.
- At age 28 I lost my job in the dot-com bust and after 3 months of paying rent ate up my minimal savings, I had to go live with my parents—after 9 years of independence on my own.

I felt alone, helpless, broken, irreparably defective. I guess I'm going to "reason by innuendo" a bit here, to make a non-rational argument by trying to draw you in a little bit to what it is like to suffer from prolonged, crushing depression. So I'm going to include some poems I wrote during those dark years. I hope you don't mind. I know it's long, and probably excessive. Sorry about that. I want you to see this and really have a chance to get it.

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I became suicidally depressed. I kept wishing that I could die. I begged God to take me.

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I journalled extensively, and prayed and prayed and prayed. The only thing that really kept me from taking my life was that it would hurt my family.

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Once, on an airplane, there was some really scary turbulence knocking the plane around. Everyone else on the plane let out small involuntary cries of dismay and fear. But I felt total peace and calm. I welcomed the possibility that I could be experiencing my final moments, and get my wish to go home to be with God.

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I finally went to a psychiatrist and got a prescription for some anti-depressants. I was diagnosed with major depression and this let me go on disability and get some benefits from the state.

It wasn't all despair. I held on to my faith. I cried out to God and looked to Him. I waited and waited for His rescue. I knew I was ill and needed healing.

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The anti-depressants were a crutch, and didn't fix me. But they lessened my misery some and helped keep me from the brink of despair. The money from the state made a gigantic, crucial difference during that hard time. I began to get a new perspective. I kept working on my problems and I kept seeking God. After a year, I went off the anti-depressants (which had some undesirable side effects anyway). I didn't really recover until I met my future wife online and began to have some hope, though my current well-being isn't dependent on her. I think I just needed a friend and some time. I had to work hard in many areas. I had to struggle and struggle to feel my Heavenly Father's presence and love, which I do much more now, though I still struggle with it sometimes.

So there's my perspective, not really argument strongly for or against pyschiatric drugs, but, I suppose, I would argue against too-strong or too-quick dismissal of their possibilities in select cases. And also I'd argue against their too-quick use or too-high expectations of their abilities.

I hope that my story has drawn some of you in, and increased your compassion for the hurting, but I also hope that it helps the other side and increases wisdom about how psychiatric drugs are not a cure or a long-term solution.

If you are depressed, if you want to die, get help. Spiritual help. Seek out family, friends, Christian brothers and sisters. Seek God. TRUST Him. Wait for deliverance. Never trust in drugs. If you use them, see them as a crutch that you will dispense with as soon as you are able.

Another time, if the moment seems right, I'll talk about my thoughts on counseling/therapy (a completely different subject from psychiatric treatment with drugs).

Erik

P.S. I felt God was responsible for putting the desire for companionship in me, so lacking that, I would be lonely. I was thinking of "it was not good for man to be alone." Whether Adam was lonely or not, I was. I prayed for God to take away my desires or to fulfill them, but for the longest time He did neither.

Eric wrote:

Lament
March 2003

Do you care
are you aware

are you impotent or just distant—
indifferent or nonexistent?
they all blur together
oh, excuse me, were you trying to build character

incapable or uninvolved
absent or just invisible?
some grand design for the greater good
I thought the ends didn't justify the means

is the failure mine or is it yours
where were you when I was being abused
how can I trust you now when I couldn't then
what purpose this suffering?

I know you'll care for me in death
but where's your care right now
you intended for me to be lonely
how exactly do you get to be not a sick bastard for that?

and what kind of a father can you be, anyway
(since you're imperceptible and all)
or am I being unreasonable
have I discounted you

where are you
why don't you come
time is running out
you'd better act soon

I'm waiting for you
to be my source of life
I'm sourceless
I don't think it's all my fault

prove me wrong
make me eat my words
rescue me
declare yourself

punish me
at least you'd be present
reach me
like a loving father should

if you have so much loyal love
and it lasts forever
is there some sort of trick
about when it's supposed to start?

I'm waiting
I'm looking
I'm hoping
I'm dying

Eric, your poem struck me! Thank you for sharing your experience and perspective. Like you, in my youth I knew prolonged intense suffering and like you, I've written a few poems. Yours above speaks volumes to me!

Further, I cannot agree more with Steve Gregg as he wrote, "There is not a one-size-fits-all answer to the issues of depression or other problems that are commonly categorized as "psychiatric" in nature. Without fear of being too "conspiratorial," I can comfortably say that the whole profession of psychiatry has very sinister origins and is largely a pawn of big pharmaceutical companies. It has ruined very many lives." I believe that not only is "psychiatry...a pawn of big pharmaceutical companies," but so also is the standard American medical philosophy and practice. I had suspected this for years, but because of my recent chronic illness I have researched and found credible evidence to support my supposition.

Now that I know what I know and after hearing Steve's answer to Sandy, the caller to the radio program (Monday?), and now after reading the other posts on this thread, I feel compelled to speak. I cannot remain silent any longer. Monday, as I heard Sandy say he would discuss the topic with his wife, I felt nauseous to think he and his wife might feel less-Christian because of their depression! (I'm not saying Steve said that, but I had an emotional " lump in my throat" as I listened to the conversation on the radio. I hope Sandy and his wife read this post!...the whole thread!)

I am offering another possible "fit" in the "not a one-size-fits-all-answer." This is very controversial, being opposed by the AMA, FDA and ADA on one side while on the otherhand, by the American Academy of Biological Dentistry, Integrative Medicine and Holistic health philosophy (and me). Whatever your opinion, the deciding factor may be in having a personal experience yourself or in knowing someone else who has.

I have discovered data to support the fact that mercury (silver) fillings, root canals and cavitations, which are rotting bone under the teeth/gumline (along with mercury and thimerosal, etc. in vaccinations) may cause or aggravate a myriad of chronic illnesses including Depression. This is very timely to me because not only do I testify to the obvious, that my life has been spared from severe neurological degeneration because of several recent biological dentistry procedures (and other choices), but also I have an aging loved one in my family who has suffered Depression and other significant psychological disorders for decades and now I am finally! in a position to understand her (and hopefully help her).

As was previously noted, there is not a one-size-fits-all approach to Depression, but for those who respond well to having the mercury removed from their dental fillings--and successfully avoiding other sources of mercury--they may find that Depression is less of a spiritual problem, and more likely a result of "toxic overload" (slow poisoning). See http://www.aaemonline.org/chemicalsensitivitypost.html for discussion on the chemicals in our lives.

Below is a list of resources on the subject of mercury poisoning, i.e. dental health, and its relationship to psychological, physical and neurological conditions.

Dr. Boyd Haley – In the past 14 years Dr. Haley has emphasized studies on Alzheimer's disease (depression is a common symptom) in his laboratory. Dr. Haley has testified as an expert witness at government hearings on the issue of the health hazards of mercury in vaccines and dental amalgam. http://www.whale.to/vaccine/hayley.html

Dr. Steven Levy (Cardiologist)- Presents the dangers of mercury, root canals and cavitations. His website is http://www.LivOnLabs.com
He is interviewed on http://www.Healthyroot.com

Dental Amalgams Mercury Solution (DAMS)- http://www.amalgam.org/

Dr. Hal Huggins– one of the founding fathers of the anti-mercury amalgam movement. http://www.hugginsappliedhealing.com

Dr. Wesley Shankland- http://www.drshankland.com/osteocavitat ... ons.html#6

Dr. Bouquot- http://www.maxillofacialcenter.com/indexNICO.htm

Watch a brain neuron respond to mercury inside a test tube- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VImCpWzXJ_w

Below is an excerpt from an article found by searching- http://www.iaomt.org (I hope you will do your own search. There is a lot of information.)

Amalgam ToxicityThere is an extremely high incidence of depression, memory loss and behavioral .... They also suffer a high incidence of depression and memory disorders. ...
http://www.iaomt.org/testfoundation/amalgamtox.htm - Cached

Dr. Williamson says that the toxicity results in disorders primarily of the central nervous system; the head, neck and oral cavity; the gastrointestinal tract; the cardiovascular, renal and immune systems. “Exposure to mercury fillings results in a chronic toxicity, not acute poisoning,” he noted as an aside.

According to Dr. Williamson, the toxicity can manifest in irritability and anxiety, restlessness and emotional instability, loss of memory, inability to concentrate, mental confusion, depression, anti-social behavior, suicidal tendencies, muscle weakness and loss of coordination; bleeding gums and loosening of teeth; abdominal cramps, chronic diarrhea and/or constipation; abnormal heart rhythms and blood pressure (high or low) and unexplained elevations of cholesterol and triglycerides; repeated infections or cancer; and generalized complaints such as chronic headaches, allergies, dermatitis, cold and clammy skin or excessive perspiration, ringing in the ears, joint and muscle pain, unsteady gait, wheezing, heart palpitations, sinus congestion, allergies, loss of appetite or chronic obesity.

Dr. Davis explains that these symptoms have inexplicably been on the rise in the past 50 years, without any unifying explanation. But findings in the past 10 years indicate that mercury toxicity may be the common link between these seemingly unrelated symptoms.

Thank you for allowing me to share this information and my viewpoint. I recognize the ill-effect that dental issues and mercury exposure have upon mental and physical health, so I pray that you (we) are guided by the Holy Spirit to improved health, even toward the joy of our salvation.