What to do when they deny?

[mattrose]

Thanks for all the feedback.

Steve has correctly summarized the issue I'm thinking about

The problem would seem to be how guilt of an affair can be determined without a verbal confession.

And I think, perhaps, the best advice given was to pray that the sin, if present, is found out... that evidence emerges... that God reveals the guilt of the guilty party. Perhaps patience is the best solution to the problem.

What affair? The "spouse" in your story denies he/she was involved in an affair.

You're sort of trying to respond to my question while ignoring the premise. The question is about what to do with people who DENY something that is almost certainly true. Imagine a situation in which lots of evidence indicates unfaithfulness, but it can not be proven and the sin is denied.

[darinhouston]

When church discipline does occur, I do not think it incumbent upon children and relatives to shun the one under discipline. There are different duties that are involved in different relationships. I believe that excommunication simply refers to the person's lack of being welcomed in the fellowship of the church. It would also apply to fellowship outside of the church with individual church members (apart from those who have other duties to live with them). For such persons, it is forbidden "even to eat with such person" (1 Cor.5:11).

I understand that the relatives don't need to shun them, but what practical effect would, for example, the shunning of a wife by a fellowship have on the ability of the relatives to continue to fellowship with the body who shunned her? Do they lose the fellowship, also? Or should they leave the wife at home when attending a gathering? Maybe it's hypothetical, but I suspect church discipline is not limited to single folks, so it's not completely hypothetical.

[RND]

You're sort of trying to respond to my question while ignoring the premise. The question is about what to do with people who DENY something that is almost certainly true.

"...is almost certainly true. ..." Is that anything like "a little bit pregnant?" If you don't know the truth of a situation 100% then it's just specualtion.

Imagine a situation in which lots of evidence indicates unfaithfulness, but it can not be proven and the sin is denied.

Why would I do that? Id something cannot be "proven" and "sin" is denied I'd take that as a hint that you might be mistaken.

[mattrose]

Well cool for you. I'd love to live in a world where everyone was being honest

[RND]

Well cool for you. I'd love to live in a world where everyone was being honest

You have a denial from the spouse. Why don't you just accept that?

I have a buddy I do prison ministry with that is in the midst of a nasty divorce yet sits in church with a his "new lady friend." Some of in the church have said this isn't right. Yet they don't know my buddies situation. The Pastor does. My buddy swears he is not intimate with his "new lady friend." Guess what? I trust him. I take him at his word. I believe him. I'm also very happy for him! He seems much happier. More relaxed. Not as stressed anymore since he moved out. God knows the truth. I just love my friend regardless. And if some of the folks in the church have their hair set on fire then it's because they'd rather rumor monger than know the truth.

God knows. An I "trust" he knows the difference.

[darinhouston]

Well cool for you. I'd love to live in a world where everyone was being honest

You have a denial from the spouse. Why don't you just accept that?

I have a buddy I do prison ministry with that is in the midst of a nasty divorce yet sits in church with a his "new lady friend." Some of in the church have said this isn't right. Yet they don't know my buddies situation. The Pastor does. My buddy swears he is not intimate with his "new lady friend." Guess what? I trust him. I take him at his word. I believe him. I'm also very happy for him! He seems much happier. More relaxed. Not as stressed anymore since he moved out. God knows the truth. I just love my friend regardless. And if some of the folks in the church have their hair set on fire then it's because they'd rather rumor monger than know the truth.

God knows. An I "trust" he knows the difference.

Of course that is true sometimes, RND, but perhaps someone saw them in a compromising situation and they still deny it? There are, no doubt, situations where someone's guilt is pretty clear and yet they deny it -- it's the Homer Simpson defense -- "It wasn't me -- no one saw me do it." Or just complete denial. I've heard of spouses who were caught in bed with another with no clothes on en flagrante so to speak who flat out deny that it happened. There's no end to the brazen-ness of the unrepentant sometimes. I had a relative live with me once who would come home stoned out of his mind frequently and I found drugs on ocassion and he completely denied doing drugs.

It is unfortunate, but in my experience with enough smoke there actually is usually fire.

[RND]

Of course that is true sometimes, RND, but perhaps someone saw them in a compromising situation and they still deny it?

Darin, I see what you're saying but in my mind that's "gossip" in what you are describing. What does James say about the tongue?

James 3:5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth!

I would run away from someone at church that said, "Guess what I saw so & so doing?"

There are, no doubt, situations where someone's guilt is pretty clear and yet they deny it -- it's the Homer Simpson defense -- "It wasn't me -- no one saw me do it." Or just complete denial. I've heard of spouses who were caught in bed with another with no clothes on en flagrante so to speak who flat out deny that it happened. There's no end to the brazen-ness of the unrepentant sometimes. I had a relative live with me once who would come home stoned out of his mind frequently and I found drugs on ocassion and he completely denied doing drugs.

It is unfortunate, but in my experience with enough smoke there actually is usually fire.

I still think it's better to err on the side of trust rather than distrust, that's all I'm saying.

[mattrose]

Better to trust? Trust whom?

You have 2 Christians, both members of your church family, claiming opposite things. One says there is all sorts of evidence. The other says there is no proof. I'm asking about a scenario in which your heart/mind tends to 'trust' the former over the latter.

That said, I get your advice. So far it seems we have

1) Trust the denial until you are proven otherwise
2) Trust God to expose sin in due time

All in all, the 2 pieces of advice are not entirely different.

[RND]

Better to trust? Trust whom?

You have 2 Christians, both members of your church family, claiming opposite things. One says there is all sorts of evidence. The other says there is no proof. I'm asking about a scenario in which your heart/mind tends to 'trust' the former over the latter.

This seems slightly different than the OP. More info added. You have a "he said/she said" situation on your hands. I am more apt in such a situation to trust the one that denies.

That said, I get your advice. So far it seems we have

1) Trust the denial until you are proven otherwise

Trust the "denier."

2) Trust God to expose sin in due time

Won't He? But once He does should we stop loving?

All in all, the 2 pieces of advice are not entirely different.

Well, I hope not.

[Michelle]

Better to trust? Trust whom?

You have 2 Christians, both members of your church family, claiming opposite things. One says there is all sorts of evidence. The other says there is no proof. I'm asking about a scenario in which your heart/mind tends to 'trust' the former over the latter.

This seems slightly different than the OP. More info added. You have a "he said/she said" situation on your hands. I am more apt in such a situation to trust the one that denies.

This is a nitpick and wildly off topic, but this is not different from the OP at all, it's exactly the same information that was given there.

That said, I get your advice. So far it seems we have

1) Trust the denial until you are proven otherwise

Trust the "denier."

Was that really necessary?

2) Trust God to expose sin in due time

Won't He? But once He does should we stop loving?

Why did you ask, "won't He?" Was there something Matt said that makes you think that he doesn't trust God?

All in all, the 2 pieces of advice are not entirely different.

Well, I hope not.

They're not.