Curses!
Paidion pointed out:
"There is not a hint in these words that praying for our enemies can be prayer against them."
To which I might add that the imprecatory prayers were not prayed against the enemies of the man of God, as such. They were prayed against evil people, indeed, but it was because those people were enemies of God. Some of these enemies of God became enemies of the men of God as well, but that was a secondary concern.
Certainly, the spiritual warfare between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness involves physical casualties on both sides. The enemy kills God's soldiers, whenever he can. God, for His part, sometimes kills His enemies, as well—e.g., Korah (Num.16:32), Hananiah (Jer.28:16-17), Herod (Acts 12), etc. In the latter case, there may be a direct link between the prayers of the church and the death of Herod (Acts 12:5, 23). There is no reason why the prayers of the church should not be in harmony with the will of God.
Consider the passage 2 Timothy 4:14-16. Much as it may go against our sensitivities, Paul definitely prayed judgment on Alexander the coppersmith. "May the Lord reward him according to his works," in the context, is clearly not the invocation of a blessing. It may seem that this is an instance of Paul not properly loving his enemy, because Alexander had done Paul "much harm" (2 Tim.4:14).
However, Paul also told Timothy, "You also must beware of him, for he has greatly resisted our words" (v.15). Paul's real reason was that the man was an enemy of God and of the gospel, and had only incidentally become an opponent of Paul because of this. When it came to those who were not enemies of God but who had harmed Paul through their cowardice, merely, Paul wished them no ill: "At my first defense no one stood with me, but all forsook me. May it not be charged against them" (v.16).
Paul also struck Elymas blind (less severe than death, but still a punitive act), so Paul did not find himself averse to imprecations. Likewise, his imprecation, "If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed," was a straightforward example of his praying a curse on the enemies of Christ, though not evidencing any personal malice on Paul's part for those who did not love him.
David (a man after God's own heart) prayed many imprecatory prayers. However, it is not common for him to inveigh against his personal adversaries (consider his tenderheartedness toward Saul and Absalom, even when they were pursuing him to kill him).
Like Paul, David's imprecations were generally directed against those "who forsake thy law," or some equivalent offense against God. Typical of David's attitude would be that found in Psalm 139:19-24—
Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God!...
For they speak against You wickedly;
Your enemies take Your name in vain.
Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.
These men were not, primarily, David's enemies. He adopted them as enemies because they were God's enemies, and David was on God's side. "The enemy of my friend is my enemy."
It is interesting that his next words are:
Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting.
Though David had these strong feelings toward God's enemies, he was not aware of any impurity in his heart or motives. He knew that there could be such, since strong emotions can easily spill over into inappropriate attitudes. He prayed for God to check his heart for him, and to let him know if there is anything improper there.
To be on God's side of the spiritual conflict is no violation of Christ's commands to love our own enemies. If God's will is to take out His opposition, it can hardly be wrong for us to pray for the same, which is inherent in the request, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
The Lord's prayer has nothing of the "Let there be thousands of daisies" spirit of our most charitable sentiments. Prayer is warfare. When we pray for the kingdom to come, we are praying for the doom of its enemies—not because of anything they have done to us, but because of their opposition to that which is to be our compelling passion: "Seek first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness..." Righteousness means justice. Justice is never easy on the criminals.
"There is not a hint in these words that praying for our enemies can be prayer against them."
To which I might add that the imprecatory prayers were not prayed against the enemies of the man of God, as such. They were prayed against evil people, indeed, but it was because those people were enemies of God. Some of these enemies of God became enemies of the men of God as well, but that was a secondary concern.
Certainly, the spiritual warfare between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of darkness involves physical casualties on both sides. The enemy kills God's soldiers, whenever he can. God, for His part, sometimes kills His enemies, as well—e.g., Korah (Num.16:32), Hananiah (Jer.28:16-17), Herod (Acts 12), etc. In the latter case, there may be a direct link between the prayers of the church and the death of Herod (Acts 12:5, 23). There is no reason why the prayers of the church should not be in harmony with the will of God.
Consider the passage 2 Timothy 4:14-16. Much as it may go against our sensitivities, Paul definitely prayed judgment on Alexander the coppersmith. "May the Lord reward him according to his works," in the context, is clearly not the invocation of a blessing. It may seem that this is an instance of Paul not properly loving his enemy, because Alexander had done Paul "much harm" (2 Tim.4:14).
However, Paul also told Timothy, "You also must beware of him, for he has greatly resisted our words" (v.15). Paul's real reason was that the man was an enemy of God and of the gospel, and had only incidentally become an opponent of Paul because of this. When it came to those who were not enemies of God but who had harmed Paul through their cowardice, merely, Paul wished them no ill: "At my first defense no one stood with me, but all forsook me. May it not be charged against them" (v.16).
Paul also struck Elymas blind (less severe than death, but still a punitive act), so Paul did not find himself averse to imprecations. Likewise, his imprecation, "If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed," was a straightforward example of his praying a curse on the enemies of Christ, though not evidencing any personal malice on Paul's part for those who did not love him.
David (a man after God's own heart) prayed many imprecatory prayers. However, it is not common for him to inveigh against his personal adversaries (consider his tenderheartedness toward Saul and Absalom, even when they were pursuing him to kill him).
Like Paul, David's imprecations were generally directed against those "who forsake thy law," or some equivalent offense against God. Typical of David's attitude would be that found in Psalm 139:19-24—
Oh, that You would slay the wicked, O God!...
For they speak against You wickedly;
Your enemies take Your name in vain.
Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You?
And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
I hate them with perfect hatred;
I count them my enemies.
These men were not, primarily, David's enemies. He adopted them as enemies because they were God's enemies, and David was on God's side. "The enemy of my friend is my enemy."
It is interesting that his next words are:
Search me, O God, and know my heart;
Try me, and know my anxieties;
And see if there is any wicked way in me,
And lead me in the way everlasting.
Though David had these strong feelings toward God's enemies, he was not aware of any impurity in his heart or motives. He knew that there could be such, since strong emotions can easily spill over into inappropriate attitudes. He prayed for God to check his heart for him, and to let him know if there is anything improper there.
To be on God's side of the spiritual conflict is no violation of Christ's commands to love our own enemies. If God's will is to take out His opposition, it can hardly be wrong for us to pray for the same, which is inherent in the request, "Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven."
The Lord's prayer has nothing of the "Let there be thousands of daisies" spirit of our most charitable sentiments. Prayer is warfare. When we pray for the kingdom to come, we are praying for the doom of its enemies—not because of anything they have done to us, but because of their opposition to that which is to be our compelling passion: "Seek first the kingdom of God, and His righteousness..." Righteousness means justice. Justice is never easy on the criminals.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Actually, this was not a prayer. The word for "reward" is a future active indicative. "The Lord will repay him according to his deeds". It is translated as a simple future in the ASV, BBE, Darby, ERV, GWV, NIV and the NASB.Steve wrote:Consider the passage 2 Timothy 4:14-16. Much as it may go against our sensitivities, Paul definitely prayed judgment on Alexander the coppersmith. "May the Lord reward him according to his works," in the context, is clearly not the invocation of a blessing.
Oops. I just checked out the Textus Receptus Greek. In there it is a 2nd aorist optative. The optative is the "I wish" mode. "I wish the Lord would repay him according to his deeds". If that's what Paul wrote, then those words still don't seem to be exactly a prayer, but perhaps would be getting close to one.
I thought I would find the correct Greek words in the book I have of all transcripts of existing manuscripts from before the year 300, but unfortunately neither of the Timothys exist in those early manuscripts.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Paidion
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
Avatar --- Age 45
"Not one soul will ever be redeemed from hell but by being saved from his sins, from the evil in him." --- George MacDonald
What would it take to cross the threshold into prayerdom?Paidion wrote:If that's what Paul wrote, then those words still don't seem to be exactly a prayer, but perhaps would be getting close to one.
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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