Curses!

[Guest]

Consider the following OT passages:

Hear, O our God, for we are despised; turn their reproach on their own heads, and give them as plunder to a land of captivity! 5 Do not cover their iniquity, and do not let their sin be blotted out from before You; for they have provoked You to anger before the builders. Neh. 4:4-5

If only you would slay the wicked, O God!
Away from me, you bloodthirsty men!
They speak of you with evil intent;
your adversaries misuse your name.

Do I not hate those who hate you, O LORD,
and abhor those who rise up against you?

I have nothing but hatred for them;
I count them my enemies. Ps. 139:19:22

The Psalms passage, by the way puts a damper on an otherwise beautiful piece of poetry.

My question is this: Is there EVER any place for this type of praying in the NT economy?

Jesus obviously teaches us to love our enemies, etc.

So does that absolutely forbid the types of prayers like those uttered by godly men in the OT?

(Not that I have any intention of calling down curses on anyone. Just curious).

TK

[Guest]

The imprecations like those you cite in the Old Testament have their counterparts in the New Testament, too:

Luke 18:3, 7-8—
"Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, 'Get justice for me from my adversary.'...And shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them? I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. "

Revelation 6:10—
"And they cried with a loud voice, saying, 'How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?'"

1 Corinthians 16:22—
"If anyone does not love the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be accursed."

2 Timothy 4:14—
"Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm. May the Lord repay him according to his works."

[Guest]

However, there is no prayer in the NT indicating that a disciple of Christ hates his enemies.

Christ said: You have heard that it was said , "Love your neighbour and hate your enemy", but I tell you, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous."

[Guest]

exactly, paidion. that's why i have a hard time accepting that it might be ok to pray that way, even if its against an evil person or entity.

does loving our enemies mean we are not allowed to pray for their failure, if they are working against the Kingdom? i think not, but we are so used to being told to love our enemies that it is difficult to figure out how to pray against them in an unsinful way.

TK

[Guest]

But if they're our enemies because they oppose the kingdom (not just because they're unpleasant) wouldn't praying for their failure be the most loving thing to pray for?

[Guest]

Whenever you pray "Thy kingdom come..." you are praying for the failure and downfall of every enterprise that opposes the kingdom of God, including those who are the masterminds and functionaries of those enterprises.

[Guest]

Steve-

i certainly understand what you are saying here- but praying "Thy Kingdom come" is less direct than praying more specifically.

For e.g., David prayed that God would "slay the wicked."

Nehemiah prayed that his enemies sins would not be "blotted out."

I am trying to think of a concrete example to use in our own time- perhaps this will do: we all know that Hollywood has a corrupting influence on our culture, particularly our youth. Now, many Christians might pray that the producers, etc would come to know Christ, that there would be an influx of christianity into movies, TV etc. but I dont know many christians who would pray "Father, slay those haters of the gospel who seek to destroy and corrupt the lives of our children, and never ever forgive them for what they have done."

another good example might be child molestors, and the like. i am sure many christians would like God to rain down curses on them.

should we be praying this way?

TK

[Guest]

I think the problem boils down to our inability to obtain perfect Love & perfect Justice. God has both. My personal rule-of-thumb. I don't pray directly for ills of folks who hurt me.

I have prayed against people I think are hurting God (Most of them claiming to be Christians). I just pray their plans fail.

tim

[Guest]

I think the passages in Psalms and Nehemiah are cries to God for justice. Murf is right, it's hard to grasp perfect justice which is why I think David and Nehemiah prayed for God to take care of it instead of determining to take matters into their own hands.

We do, however, have some sense of justice. Crying out for Hollywood producers to be slain is all out of proportion. Their motivation, as far as I know, is greed, which doesn't seem to merit the death penalty. Praying for their next high budget blockbuster to tank might actually be a loving response because the damage to their pride and their investment portfolios might humble them enough to turn to God.

The child molester is a tougher one because I, personally, would like to see them slain, but that's probably out of proportion too. This came up in that lost discussion about forgiveness. If a child molester came to Christ, and I'm sure some have, I still think that they should be punished for their crimes to the full extent of the law. I don't think this violates love or mercy, but I'm not totally sure yet.

Both of those examples seem more like cases of "unpleasant people" than enemies of the Kingdom. I happened to hear two unsettling stories just this week about young women who were martyred for their faith. One was a Saudi woman who was murdered by her own father because she converted from Islam to Christianity and refused to recant. The other was a Coptic Christian in Egypt who was kidnapped, raped and killed by a gang of Islamic fundamentalists. What would you pray about in these cases? I think it would be just for these murderers to recieve the death penalty. Would it be wrong to pray that justice would prevail?

[Guest]

I think the words of Christ bear repeating:

Christ said: You have heard that it was said , "Love your neighbour and hate your enemy", but I tell you, "Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous."

There is not a hint in these words that praying for our enemies can be prayer against them. Indeed His analogy with the Father's treating both good and evil people alike as far as His sending rain and sunshine is concerned, suggests that our prayers should be as positive for our enemies as for our friends.

Richard Wurbrand, who was tortured for much of his 14 years in a Romanian prison, prayed positively for his torturers. Many of them actually became disciples of Christ later. I think our brother Wurband's prayers were a large factor.