Backlash over "A Vision for Children"

Post by **_TK** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 4:49 pm

Hi all- your sage counsel is needed.

About a year and a half ago, I sent a copy of Steve G's teaching "A Vision for Children" to my stepdaughter and her husband. They had gotten into the mindset that "everything had to be perfect" in their lives before they started a family. For those of you who havent heard this teaching, Steve essentially makes the point that if we truly trust God, why would we not trust him with how many children we have?

Well, they listened to this tape, agreed with it, and got pregnant. They also shared it with good friends who also got pregant. My granddaughter will be 1 yr old in September.

At any rate, this past year has been something of a real financial struggle. My son-in-law really doesnt earn quite enough to make ends meet by himself, and of course mom doesnt want to work and leave the baby with strangers. She claims that she has really looked hard for work in the evening, etc and other options like babysitting, etc but nothing has come up.

Now she is blaming me (well not really blaming me) but questioning me about how they trusted God and he gave them a child but there has been no answer to prayer for financial provision. Plus, they would like to have another child but are torn because of the financial difficulties of raising the one they have. They further are wondering whats going on because they do really seek the Lord- they attend a dynamic church and they have a lot of faith, but any doors that seem to open slam shut rather quickly.

Of course, they love their daughter very much and in no way are begrudging the fact that they now have a child. They are just confused about what God is doing in their lives.

HELP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

TK

Post by **_Paidion** » Mon Jun 16, 2008 7:42 pm

Looks to me, TK, as if you have some responsibility in helping them with expenses concerning the child. Maybe God will answer their prayer through you.

Post by **_Sean** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:14 am

I would think the church they attend should help out, or other church members.

They could also look into state aid. If they already pay taxes then I wouldn't have a problem with this but some would see it differently.

All I can say is I have my 4th child on the way and God has always (just barely) provided. We are this year in a position where we have some extra, and are more terrified of that then having just enough to get by. We are presently helping out some people who are in difficult circumstances and would recommend that anyone from their (your stepdaughter's) church or friends do the same if possible. That's what it's all about, helping "family".

Or we could all yell at Steve for convincing us to have so many children!

Post by **_TK** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 7:41 am

Paidion wrote:

Looks to me, TK, as if you have some responsibility in helping them with expenses concerning the child. Maybe God will answer their prayer through you.

True, but unfortunately I cannot allay the entire burden.

The bigger question, then, is charity the answer? When Jesus promises that that God will provide, did He mean that this would be through charity, or through industry? Most people (certainly my stepdaughter and her husband) are very squeamish about accepting charity, especially from the State.

The bigger question at stake (as presented by Jodie, my stepdaughter) is this:

* What does it mean to have trust in God, if, when you trust in God, your needs dont seem to be met?

I gave her every pat answer i could think of, but when it gets down to the nitty-gritty, it sounds like a bunch of platitudes.

My fear is that she is somewhat disenchanted and I dont want her to swing the other way and begin doing just the opposite of what Prov 3:5,6 says. Because doing what Prov 3:5-6 says has not seemed to be working.

TK

*

Post by **_schoel** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:36 am

* What does it mean to have trust in God, if, when you trust in God, your needs dont seem to be met?

Have they considered their expenditures?
It may be that there may be expenses that have been classified as needs, when they really aren't necessary.
Or perhaps it is a necessary expense, but one that could be trimmed.

For example, do I really need cable, when I'm struggling to pay my water bill?

Dave

Post by **_Mort_Coyle** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:49 am

One of my favorite quotes is from Leonardo da Vinci: "O Lord, you give us everything ... at the price of an effort."

My question would be why are they not making ends meet? Are they being frugal with their money? Or are they blowing it on things like cable TV and eating out? If you give them financial assistance are you only enabling undisciplined fiscal behavior? Why isn't the hubby earning enough? Can he get a second job to provide for his family?

Part of how God is blessing them might be through the discipline and struggle and having to make tough choices. These are the types of things that bring maturity.

I'd consider turning them on to Dave Ramsey, a very popular financial guru who helps people get their personal finances under control and live cheaply: http://www.daveramsey.com
He wrote a great book called "The Total Money Makeover". Perhaps giving them a copy of this book might provide inspiration and direction.

I'm making certain assumptions here, so I apologize in advance if my perspective on this is in error.

Post by **_darin-houston** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:54 am

TK wrote: What does it mean to have trust in God, if, when you trust in God, your needs dont seem to be met?

I would really like to hear Steve's answer to this because he communicates things so well and always starts from the biblical support, but my personal view is that Faith is only tested and you can only determine whether you indeed had trust / Faith (as compared with simple hope) after the hard times come and you measure your Faith against your reaction to that challenge. Only the prosperity doctrine would suggest immediate gratification from stepping out in Faith. It's often not God that failed, but our Faith that proved weak. We might pray fervently for their Faith to be increased.

As to the finances, I am not in a position to criticize as the Lord has blessed my family financially in my adult career, and my particular challenge is to recognize how and when God wants me to use that for the benefit of others in our church family and beyond. However, I have not always had money, and I was raised by a single mom doing her best and working two jobs with weekend part-time to give us all she could (which I now fell some guilt for as it was too much and so much more than I needed as I realize how hard she worked).

I would suggest from listening to Steve's many comments on the subject that our expected standard of living is usually the culprit when we find ourselves in Faith challenges over finances.

A roof over the head and food on the table and clothes to protect us is all God promises and with which we should alone be content if that's what He provides for us. Further blessing may only come when our heart is in that place where we truly are content in that situation. God's provision does not always come from industry, and I would recommend taking (as necessary) Christian charity (or government assistance) over the Mom working particularly if the dad is working his hardest and taking jobs that are available without regard to "standing" and "value" of that job, though a second job for the husband is advisable when necessary, I think, as long as he is able to "be there" at home sufficiently to provide observation and guidance for the family. Can they live with someone while the father learns a new trade or gets further education? Are there other solutions? Maybe God wants to use them to bless a family who would take them in for a time?

As for the government assistance, this is a less desirable "system" in my opinion than Christian families giving to one another as led by the Holy Spirit, but it is there just the same, and I would prefer that a hard working family trying to raise Christian children would use the system than a deadbeat dude who won't work and doesn't care but to get what he can from others. If I'm going to support this system with my taxes, the morality of such a "taking" is actually increased in my opinion when families such as yours takes advantage of it in some measure and especially if it's only as necessary.

I hope this doesn't sound harsh or judgmental -- I've eaten my share of potatoes and beans in my childhood and I remember those anonymous love gifts that came in the mail at just the right time, so I do have an internal frame of reference for their situation, and we have to always remember that even meager provision we might consider beneath us is considered wealthy by historic and global standards even today.

Post by **_TK** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 10:16 am

Danny wrote:

Part of how God is blessing them might be through the discipline and struggle and having to make tough choices. These are the types of things that bring maturity.

I tend to think this is likely the case here.

darin wrote:

I would really like to hear Steve's answer to this because he communicates things so well and always starts from the biblical support, but my personal view is that Faith is only tested and you can only determine whether you indeed had trust / Faith (as compared with simple hope) after the hard times come and you measure your Faith against your reaction to that challenge. Only the prosperity doctrine would suggest immediate gratification from stepping out in Faith. It's often not God that failed, but our Faith that proved weak. We might pray fervently for their Faith to be increased.

Amen to that!

Frugality is not the issue at this point, i think they are being as frugal as possible. e.g., they havent had cable for a good while. eating out is no longer an option. they have drained his 401-k to make ends meet.

My son in law is an assistant greens superintendent at a prestigious golf club in SC. He loves this line of work and this is what he went to school to do. at some point he will become a head superintendent, at which time they will not have financial concerns because of the salary they are paid. assistent superintendents, on the other hand, get paid much less while they learn the business. i liken it to physician interns. you work hard and long for low pay, but ultimately it is worth it when you get promoted.

My stepdaughter had a good job at UPS that she quit when she had the baby. the big problem, of course, is that when they bought their house (which isnt extravagant by any means) both were working, etc.

I appreciate all of your advice and comments-- it is all good.

TK

Post by **_MoGrace2u** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 1:13 pm

Now she is blaming me (well not really blaming me) but questioning me about how they trusted God and he gave them a child but there has been no answer to prayer for financial provision. Plus, they would like to have another child but are torn because of the financial difficulties of raising the one they have. They further are wondering whats going on because they do really seek the Lord- they attend a dynamic church and they have a lot of faith, but any doors that seem to open slam shut rather quickly.

Of course, they love their daughter very much and in no way are begrudging the fact that they now have a child. They are just confused about what God is doing in their lives.

It seems they may have fallen into the idea that God now somehow owes them something. As if their church-going and other religious obedience ought to earn them His favor. But Prov 3:5+ says not to lean on our own understanding as we are trusting in the Lord with all our heart. Waiting on the Lord also requires patience - perhaps to bring them past this line of reasoning. If they are content with what they have - in the Lord, and handle that responsibly - it will go a long way towards helping them develop this patience and will give them the exercise needed to mature their faith. Whatever God may have in store for their good, it will no doubt include this purpose. Job's attitude was a good one when he was facing his trial. But when he erred it was in accusing God. Yet his trial when it was over ended with much blessing - and greater faith in God.

Post by **_TK** » Tue Jun 17, 2008 2:52 pm

Mograce2u wrote:

It seems they may have fallen into the idea that God now somehow owes them something.

Doesnt God owe them something? I would argue "yes" although saying it like that is a tad distasteful. God would owe them, it would seem, what He promises. He promises to meet their basic needs. If we cant rely on God's promises, what can we rely on? Saying that God owes us something sounds kind of harsh, but is God not faithful in what he promises?

The issue then, is what constitutes a need vs a want. for example, is a mortgage payment a need or a want? I would argue that a reasonable mortgage is not a want, but a need. of course i could be dead wrong about that.

TK