The Old Testament & Today

[Guest]

Since it is important to differintiate between the Old and New Covenant and doing so has a direct influence on the life of a christian today, I have a couple questions. When was the Old Covenant Instituted and how was it ratified?

[Guest]

The Old Covenant was instituted and ratified by the people at Sinai, after God had delivered them from egypt.

May i ask what you think the differences are between the so-called "Old" and the "New" Covenants?

peace, dmatic

[_roblaine]

Hello dmatic, and welcome!

Soaringeagle can answer for himself, but your response has me wondering if you see a difference in the two covenants.

You wrote:

May i ask what you think the differences are between the so-called "Old" and the "New" Covenants?

The Bible seems rather clear that there is a difference between the New and Old covenant. Jeremiah Speaks of it:

Jer. 31:31-34
31 "The time is coming," declares the Lord, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the Lord. 33 "This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time," declares the Lord. "I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest," declares the Lord. "For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."

Jesus instituted it:
Luke 22:19-20
19 And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, "This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me." 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

The author of Hebrews speaks about it as well:

Hebrews 8:10-13
10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." 13 By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.

It certainly seems to me that the Covenant that was confirmed at Mt. Sinai has been made obsolete. Therefore, we no longer offer animal sacrifices, restrict our diet to clean animals, or celebrate holy days, and festivals. Instead of needing these things, which were shadows of Christ, we have the real deal.

Colossians 2:16-17
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Robin

[Guest]

May i ask what you think the differences are between the so-called "Old" and the "New" Covenants?

For starters, under the old covenant, only priests could come into the holy of holies, and not everyone could be/actually were priests. In the new covenant, all believers together as a whole are a "royal priesthood" individually have been made to be priests to serve their God. Because of the finished work of Christ and what he accomplished for us, we all under the new covenant, we all come come into the presence of the Father through the Son by the power of the Spirit.

[Guest]

Thank you Robin!

I do feel welcome.

Indeed, there are differences between the two...

you wrote:

It certainly seems to me that the Covenant that was confirmed at Mt. Sinai has been made obsolete. Therefore, we no longer offer animal sacrifices, restrict our diet to clean animals, or celebrate holy days, and festivals. Instead of needing these things, which were shadows of Christ, we have the real deal.

I'm not sure I agree with you, however, about The Commandments being changed or made obsolete, though your conception is a common one. (or, maybe I should say "mis-conception"? )

One of the differences between the two is where the Laws were written! (I believe them to be the same Laws because there is nothing wrong with God's Word, or His Laws...they are spiritual, just and perfect! No need to change them!)

In the "Old" covenant, the laws were written on tables of stone whereas in the New they are being written within the covenanters, on their hearts and minds on tables of flesh!

Agreed?

peace, dmatic

[_roblaine]

Hi dmatic,

You wrote:

I'm not sure I agree with you, however, about The Commandments being changed or made obsolete, though your conception is a common one. (or, maybe I should say "mis-conception"? )

One of the differences between the two is where the Laws were written! (I believe them to be the same Laws because there is nothing wrong with God's Word, or His Laws...they are spiritual, just and perfect! No need to change them!)

With all due respect, I must disagree. As I pointed out in my last post, the author of Hebrews does not say that the same laws were written in a new place, but rather that the old covenant is passing away in favor of something greater, namely the new covenant which is written on our hearts.

For example the fourth commandment was written on stone, but Paul clearly includes Sabbath keeping as a shadow of things to come. Jesus Christ is the reality. Why would I want to focus on shadows when I have the real thing?

Thank you,
Robin

[Guest]

Robin, If you were "in Christ", you would keep the sabbath commandment!

I am not saying that you are not "in Christ", so please don't misunderstand me.

In Christ is no sin. Sin is the transgressing of the Law. Jesus told us to keep the commandments! The commandment is still in effect!

Peace, dmatic

[_roblaine]

Robin, If you were "in Christ", you would keep the sabbath commandment!

I am not saying that you are not "in Christ", so please don't misunderstand me.

In Christ is no sin. Sin is the transgressing of the Law. Jesus told us to keep the commandments! The commandment is still in effect!

Peace, dmatic

So Paul was wrong when he said:

Colossians 2:16-17
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Robin

[Guest]

No, I don't believe Paul was wrong! But, I do think that the translators got that passage wrong. How do you think you could obey that command to "Not let another 'judge" you regarding the keeping of sabbaths etc?

I'm sorry, but I don't have much time now, but I will try to give you a better answer to your good question concerning Col 2 tomorrow, Lord willing.

In the mean time, please consider Peter's admonition at 2 Peter 3:15-17

Thanks for your patience in advance! I look forward to discussing this important topic with you.

peace, dmatic

[Guest]

dmatic,

How do you understand the following, in particular the bolded parts:


2 Corinthians 3:5-13 (NAS)

5. Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God,

6. who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

7. But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was,

8. how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?

9. For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.

10. For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.

11. For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.

12. Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech,

13. and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away.

There is no question that Paul had the ten commandments in mind. And Jesus, in the sermon on the mount, directly referred to some of the ten commandments with "you have heard it said, but I say...".

Consider the contrast, Exodus 32 & Acts 2, law and gospel. Moses comes down fron the mountain with the tablets of stone, and three thousand people die. Peter takes the keys to the kingdom and throws open the doors and three thousand are saved. As Paul noted, quit a contrast!

Seems to me God hid Moses' body for a reason but men keep trying to dig him up.