Question about unmarried mothers

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mattrose
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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by mattrose » Sat Aug 06, 2016 12:29 am

dwight92070 wrote:Obviously, she is "in your heart" in a different way than they are. Otherwise, you would be dreaming about them on a regular basis too.
Yes, I said that :) I said there is some mysterious connection. I would guess it just has to do with the fact that my interest in her was over a longer period of time than other interests... spanning through my late teenage years and well into my 20's.
This is not a moral crisis, you say. I might agree that it is not at a crisis stage, but I think morality is definitely involved. Let me explain. Can you please tell me and the other readers what specifically you dream about when you dream about her? Are these dreams that have frustrated you for years, about righteous, wholesome, fun activities with her? Or are they X-rated, dealing with things that you would be ashamed of, if others knew? If they are, as I suspect, the latter, then I believe you have a moral issue here, and, as I said before, those dreams oftentimes are simply revealing what is in your heart, whether you consciously realize it or not. If this is the case, then ask God to forgive you for what is in your heart.


I specifically said the dreams aren't R rated. In the dreams I have interest in her. You seem to be assuming two things about dreams that I think could/should be highly contested. First, that these dreams are revealing what's in my heart. Second, that if they reveal what is in my heart I need to be forgiven for them. On the first point, while I've already admitted that our lives are connected with some significance, you seem to be using the phrase 'in your heart' as if it is obviously nefarious. It needn't be. It isn't wrong for me to care about this girl. In fact, it would be wrong for me not to. On the second point, you seem to be assuming that we should repent over the content of our dreams in such cases. Again, you may be using a very non-Wesleyan definition of sin (Wesleyans define sin as a willfull violation of a known law of God). Since I am not willing for these dreams to occur (nor the wandering thoughts), I don't think there is a sin issue here. It is, instead, an annoyance and frustration.
And if being with her often is what "sets off" these dreams, then a season of separation will help to shut down these dreams. I never said that the first time you had a dream, you should immediately get up and move. In fact, I did not even mention moving. I did suggest that you get out of that situation. How? I don't know, God knows but pray and ask him. You have said that there is nothing you can do about your situation. But it seems you have made many decisions that have put you in close proximity with her - performing her wedding, ministering with her, going to camp, knowing she will be there, etc. etc. I am not saying she is evil or immoral but I am saying that you have to take steps to stop those dreams for your peace of mind.
You are aware that this thread spans a decade. I posted in times where the issue was at its most intense moments. It is not as if I'm constantly dreaming of her. For the most part, I am frustrated by this phenomenon for a week or so after camp each year. That's it. My reason for posting about it was not that I find it unbearable, but simply that I find it frustrating and wondered if anyone had any insight.

What's more, I don't think I have done anything to purposefully put myself in close proximity to her. Our lives are simply intertwined to a high degree. We grew up in the same church. We share many of the same friends. I am married to her childhood friend. She is married to my wife's step brother. She is an active participant in both of the churches that I work at. We have always both gone to the same summer camp (of which I am the director). These are not areas that I have purposefully put myself in close proximity to her. These are just facts of life. What I do avoid is having private-natured conversations with her online or even in person.
Really? Then why have you been frustrated for years with wandering thoughts and dreams? I understand we all have those occasionally, but we are not all plagued with dreams about a specific girl for years. Also, for you to say that you are friends with all the girls that you dated prior to marriage puts you, IMO, in a rare group of men. I dare say that most wives would be quite upset if their husbands were still friends with their previous girl friends. Ask any guy on this forum how his wife would react if he chose to continue befriending his previous dating partners. To be honest, I don't think that is a sign of your marriage being strong, because there is such a thing as godly jealousy.
Again, you are assuming that dreams and wandering thoughts indicate a weakness in my marriage and/or moral life. I think you are simply wrong about this. There is a difference between unwelcome thoughts and welcomed thoughts in the Christian thought life.

It saddens me that you find it hard to imagine Christian people maintaining friendships with people whom they courted but ended up not marrying. Why couldn't such people be friends? I suppose if we were all eternally hormonal teenagers simultaneously starring in soap operas this would be impossible to navigate. It seems to me, however, that Christian people can have mature relationships with each other, even when complicated pasts are involved.

Here's what I think about my situation. I think that I had a 'love' for this girl over a long period of time which, as is to be expected, left an impression on my heart (feelings) and mind (memories). At certain points, those feelings and memories are stirred up due to close proximity. But I, as a Christian, am not ruled by my feelings or my past. I am ruled by Jesus. It is probably safe to assume that Satan sees opportunity to use those feelings and memories as a means to tempt me to sin. But Satan isn't my ruler either. He has not been victorious in utilizing these things for well over a decade now. He has a pattern of defeat, not me. I just find him annoying.

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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Aug 06, 2016 8:23 am

Yes, we definitely disagree on several issues here. As a man with a sin nature, as you are and I am, it is very difficult for me to believe that you struggled with dreams about a girl that you loved for years, but that these dreams were all wholesome and pure, especially since you say that you had no control over them. Of course I know that not every dream is R-rated, but to profess than none of them were, is beyond belief. If they were all wholesome and pure, then why would they cause you frustration and wandering thoughts? If your answer is because this girl was often the primary focus of your dreams, then that in itself is problematic, since you are a married man. By the way, wholesome and pure is the opposite of wandering thoughts.

I will say it again. Ask any mature Christian man if his wife would not be bothered by him maintaining friendships with his previous girlfriends/dating partners. Yes, a strong marriage includes a godly jealously. God Himself is a jealous God. A Christian man should not be naive and simply trust that every previous boyfriend/dating partner that his wife had, even if he is a mature Christian, could not be tempted to try to win her affections again. We are not in heaven yet. We live in a sinful world. I think you seem to deny reality on these issues. John said, "Do not believe every spirit."

Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. And yes, I believe out of the abundance of the heart, the mind dreams. How could it be otherwise? The only exceptions to this that I see are:

1. God gives you a dream or
2. Satan gives you a dream

But if the dream is not from God or Satan, then it has to be coming from your own heart. If that dream is sinful in nature, then, yes, I believe we need to ask God's forgiveness for that even being in our hearts. We need to repent for sinful thoughts. Why would we not repent for sinful dreams? Is Jesus only able to give you victory over your conscious thoughts while you are awake? Can He not also give you victory over your thoughts while you sleep?

Dwight

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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by mattrose » Sat Aug 06, 2016 9:27 am

dwight92070 wrote:Yes, we definitely disagree on several issues here. As a man with a sin nature, as you are and I am, it is very difficult for me to believe that you struggled with dreams about a girl that you loved for years, but that these dreams were all wholesome and pure, especially since you say that you had no control over them. Of course I know that not every dream is R-rated, but to profess than none of them were, is beyond belief.
I said the dreams are not R rated. Later, you mentioned X rated dreams. I replied by reiterating that the dreams are not sexual in nature. I just woke up from one of these dreams. We were at camp and I was interested in her. Neither of us were married. I was struggling to talk to her because of the complexity of our past relationship. But that was it. Most of the dreams are like that. I never denied that, in the dreams, I am interested and sometimes make romantic advances. But I don't recall any of the dreams being sexually explicit. I would imagine this is because we never had a sexual relationship so that is not part of my memory bank.

I will say this, though, it is hard to dialogue with someone who assumes you are lying to them and then judges your situation based on that non-reality.
If they were all wholesome and pure, then why would they cause you frustration and wandering thoughts? If your answer is because this girl was often the primary focus of your dreams, then that in itself is problematic, since you are a married man. By the way, wholesome and pure is the opposite of wandering thoughts.
They cause frustration b/c I would rather dream about my wife! I don't like dreaming dreams where I'm interested in another person. You are the one that used the words 'wholesome and pure'. I just said they aren't R-rated. In the dreams, I am not a married man. I am a single person who likes a single young woman.
I will say it again. Ask any mature Christian man if his wife would not be bothered by him maintaining friendships with his previous girlfriends/dating partners. Yes, a strong marriage includes a godly jealously. God Himself is a jealous God. A Christian man should not be naive and simply trust that every previous boyfriend/dating partner that his wife had, even if he is a mature Christian, could not be tempted to try to win her affections again. We are not in heaven yet. We live in a sinful world. I think you seem to deny reality on these issues. John said, "Do not believe every spirit."


I believe in a holy form of jealousy. But you are wrong about the rareness of Christian people maintaining healthy relationships with ex-love-interests. As I said, my wife is closer friends with some of my ex-girlfriends than I am. There is simply not an issue there. I'd imagine such relationships would be more difficult if those relationships had been sexual in nature. But i was a virgin until I got married.
Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. And yes, I believe out of the abundance of the heart, the mind dreams. How could it be otherwise? The only exceptions to this that I see are:

1. God gives you a dream or
2. Satan gives you a dream

But if the dream is not from God or Satan, then it has to be coming from your own heart. If that dream is sinful in nature, then, yes, I believe we need to ask God's forgiveness for that even being in our hearts. We need to repent for sinful thoughts. Why would we not repent for sinful dreams? Is Jesus only able to give you victory over your conscious thoughts while you are awake? Can He not also give you victory over your thoughts while you sleep?
Again, you are saying the dreams are sinful. But you are using a different definition of sin than I am. I shared my definition of sin as a willful violation of a known law of God. What definition are you using (I would assume you might be using 'anything that falls short of the glory of God'). Since my dreams are not willful (they are actually against my will), I do not consider them a sin issue.

I am very open to God helping to remove these dreams/thoughts from my heart & mind. But I am also open to God continuing to help me resist temptation each time unwanted dreams or wandering thoughts come. Because whether they are about this girl or not, such things will come.

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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Aug 06, 2016 7:03 pm

mattrose wrote:
dwight92070 wrote:Yes, we definitely disagree on several issues here. As a man with a sin nature, as you are and I am, it is very difficult for me to believe that you struggled with dreams about a girl that you loved for years, but that these dreams were all wholesome and pure, especially since you say that you had no control over them. Of course I know that not every dream is R-rated, but to profess than none of them were, is beyond belief.

I guess I'm using the designation R rated and X rated interchangeably, even though technically they are different. All I mean by using either of those is wondering whether the dreams are sexual in nature.

I said the dreams are not R rated. Later, you mentioned X rated dreams. I replied by reiterating that the dreams are not sexual in nature. I just woke up from one of these dreams. We were at camp and I was interested in her. Neither of us were married. I was struggling to talk to her because of the complexity of our past relationship. But that was it. Most of the dreams are like that. I never denied that, in the dreams, I am interested and sometimes make romantic advances. But I don't recall any of the dreams being sexually explicit. I would imagine this is because we never had a sexual relationship so that is not part of my memory bank.

Here again is where my unbelief comes in. (But I don't believe you are lying. I guess that is why I said that I think you are denying reality.) Your previous paragraph seems to assume that since you never had a sexual relationship with this girl, that no sexual thoughts would be there. I don't know about you but I had lots of sexual thoughts long before I ever had any sexual activity with any girl. If you tell me you didn't, which you haven't said, I would be in shock and disbelief! That is why I thought it was a given that some of your dreams were sexual in nature. On the other hand, if you tell me that you did have sexual thoughts even before meeting this girl, then it would be understandable that sexual thoughts would also be in those dreams. You mentioned making romantic advances and that you don't recall any of the dreams being sexually explicit. So am I understanding you correctly here? Are you saying that sex, i.e. petting, touching, kissing, hugging, fondling, disrobing,etc. NEVER ONCE occured in all those years that you dreamed about her?

I believe in a holy form of jealousy. But you are wrong about the rareness of Christian people maintaining healthy relationships with ex-love-interests. As I said, my wife is closer friends with some of my ex-girlfriends than I am. There is simply not an issue there. I'd imagine such relationships would be more difficult if those relationships had been sexual in nature. But i was a virgin until I got married.

Without actually surveying Christians on this issue, I don't believe you can say definitively that I am wrong. I will concede the same, that I cannot definitively say that I am right without such a survey.

Again, you are saying the dreams are sinful. But you are using a different definition of sin than I am. I shared my definition of sin as a willful violation of a known law of God. What definition are you using (I would assume you might be using 'anything that falls short of the glory of God'). Since my dreams are not willful (they are actually against my will), I do not consider them a sin issue.

Leviticus 4:2,22,27; 5:15,18; 22:14; Numbers 15:22-24,27,28,29 All of these verses speak of unintentional sins, sins that occurred that were most likely "against the will" of the persons committing them. But they were still considered sins and had to be atoned for.
Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it.
James 3:2 For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.

We are steeped in sin from birth and live in a sinful world. Our hearts are sinful - we cannot escape it, which is why we all so desperately needed the Savior. Thank you Jesus. Yes, I believe our dreams are often sinful. We have committed sins unintentionally and ignorantly as well as intentionally and knowingly long before we even had a desire to have a relationship with a young woman.

Dwight

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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by Homer » Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:08 pm

I have to disagree with the idea that dreams are sinful. I do not believe we have much, if any, control over them and I do not believe they reflect our priorities.

I almost never dream about things that are most important to me: faith and family. And neither do I recall ever dreaming about woodworking, my favorite hobby. As I mentioned long ago in this thread, I dream more about my past jobs than anything. I worked at one job from age 19 to 31, and then another from 31 until I retired when I turned 57. I absolutely do not long for my old jobs, haven't regretted leaving either one. So why do I have dreams of them, often combining them two? I do not have a clue. I liked both of my jobs and found satisfaction in both of them and I "lust" for neither.

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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by mattrose » Sat Aug 06, 2016 10:36 pm

A few bits of feedback from your latest post Dwight

1. Not trying to be nit-picky, but it would be easier to continue the dialogue if you utilized the quotation tool correctly. In your posts it is sometimes unclear to readers whether you are commenting or quoting me (I, of course, recognize my own words... but some who are only casually reading might get very confused.

2. I am trying to be as open and honest in this thread as possible. Can I say with absolute confidence that non of these dreams have been sexual in nature? No. I honestly don't recall any of them involving sexual intercourse. The vast majority of them are just about me existing as a single man interacting with her as a single woman. In the dreams, I like her. I am interested in pursuing a relationship with her. Perhaps in some of the dreams I hold her hand or we embrace. Could some of them have included more sexually explicit aspects? It is possible, though dreams like that must have been few and far between or I'd remember them. I really don't remember my dreams that specifically. All I know for sure is that when I wake up I often feel bad for having dreamed of another woman at all.

3. But in a sense, all of this is beside the point. We are disagreeing about something else. I am saying that EVEN IF my dreams were more sexually explicit, I wouldn't consider it a sin-issue insofar as they are unwelcome on my part. They are involuntary. I'd rather not have them at all.

4. My theory that my dreams are not sexually explicit because I never had a sexual relationship with this girl was not an attempt to argue that it is impossible to have sexually explicit dreams about someone with whom one has never been sexually active! I'm quite sure many people have sexually explicit dreams about celebrities they've never met. My point was just to guess as to why my specific dreams about this girl have not been sexually explicit (since you were so surprised by this... I thought I'd theorize a potential explanation).

5. You seem to have a much more Calvinistic definition of sin than I do. Are you a Calvinist? If so, that might explain some of the disagreement that we seem to be having. You seem to define sin PRIMARILY as anything that falls short of God's glory (Whether intentional or unintentional). While I am aware of the Old Testament references you listed regarding unintentional sins, I think it is clear from Scripture that that is not normally what God has in mind when sin is being discussed. The primary way of looking at sin, in Scripture, is a willful violation of a known law of God. If you dispute this, I would encourage you to start a thread about it. It could be a fruitful discussion of which I'd be glad to participate.

6. I believe that there is a clear distinction to be made between volitional sin and what Wesley would have called infirmities. Here are a few quotes from Wesley:

“[Infirmities are]... all those inward and outward imperfections which are not of a moral nature.”

"Nor, doth he sin by infirmities, whether in act, word, or thought; for his infirmities have no concurrence of his will; and without this they are not properly sins."

I believe I am experiencing an infirmity. It is something that is not ideal, but that comes from being a human in a fallen world. It is not a sin issue (since there is no volition involved on my part). God has given me the strength to endure it and a remain hopeful that it could be removed.

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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by dwight92070 » Sat Aug 06, 2016 11:36 pm

Mattrose,

It is late so I will respond to your post at another time. I have wanted to learn how to use the quote tool properly, but have not yet figured it out. I actually asked Jared sometime ago for help with that, but he did not respond.

No I am definitely not a Calvinist. I have such strong disagreement with Calvinism that I wonder sometimes if Calvin was even saved.

Will continue later.

Dwight

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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by dwight92070 » Sun Aug 07, 2016 8:54 pm

Mattrose,

Just now I got off the phone with my pastor. We also attend a homechurch and have since 2001. I intend to do a little survey among our fellowship. I ran everything that we have discussed by him (Dan) and he is in total agreement with me on what I have said in my posts. This is the first time I have even brought this up with him. He, too, as you might suspect, is not a Calvinist.
Dan is 59, has been married 27 years to Kay, and they have 3 girls. One is married, the 2nd one has graduated from college and is working, and the 3rd will start college this fall.

He said that if he was in your shoes, and still had dreams of another woman, he would do everything he could to mortify the flesh, including praying about how to spend less time with this woman. In fact, he even cautions about friendships with ANY women other than your wife, whether you had a prior relationship with them or not. What does that look like for him? Well, Dan and Kay, and my wife, Oralia, and I have "double-dated" on occasion, going to a restaurant and a concert. His entire family and my family (we have 5 kids) have done some things together. So, on those occasions he talks freely with my wife, and I with his wife, just as we do at church, and potlucks after church. Also, phone calls - there have been times through the years that it is necessary for me to talk with Kay and Dan would talk with Oralia, but the calls are not lengthy, and focused on "business", i.e. usually related to some issue at the church, or a family issue where we need the perspective of the opposite sex.

We have seen Dan countless times for counseling with issues that come up, but we see him together, i.e. Oralia and I, or in some cases, Kay has been a part of it. Dan would never do anything with Oralia alone that he might do with me alone, or another brother alone, such as walks in the park, or play tennis, or go out to eat, or talk on the phone for a long time, etc. The same is true with me and Kay. Those are things that one would do with a friend.

Dan mentioned nocturnal dreams, which are mentioned in the Old Testament. They, too, had to be atoned for. Obviously, those kind of dreams often occur when the dream has to do with sex, yet the man did not willfully commit a sexual act. Regarding maintaining friendships with a previous girlfriend or dating partner, Dan was like - are you kidding me? There is no way he would ever do that, and yes, it would bother Kay immensely. I will start a thread on these topics and we will survey the men and women who post here.

Dwight

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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by morbo3000 » Mon Aug 08, 2016 12:13 am

I replied to Dwight's questions, then returned and read this thread and deleted my answers, because they didn't reflect the context.

1. What happens in dreams aren't sin, because they aren't willful. Dreams are the mind's garbage processor. All the stuff that is on our minds, or jumbled around in memories, or whatever, becomes building blocks for all sorts of weird tales in our sleep. Sleep is a reset button where all that stuff gets sorted and processed.

1a. Remembering dreams is often a symptom of sleep problems. Because I have bipolar disorder I am hyper-aware of sleep, and relationship to meds. I have been tweaking my doses and discovered that reducing one has made my sleep way more restful. I don't get up in the night. And I rarely remember my dreams. Making sure I don't drink caffeine too late. And using a filter on my computer and phone screen to filter out blue light help tons.

2. I have a few former relationships that come up in my dreams. One was an adulteress relationship that I had which I repented of, was forgiven of, and moved on from. I have zero contact with her. I have anger towards her for her complicity in the relationship. And guilt for mine. But neither of those are feelings I harbor. It's just the consequence of sin. I dream about her occassionally, but in the dreams, I am more or less reconciling with her. There could be other things happening in the dreams I don't remember. But even if they were sexual, I wouldn't consider that a sin. It is just my minds way of working through the garbage. As long as I stay open to the spirit's work in my life, this too shall pass.

3. Sexual attraction is a danger to always be avoided. But in the interest of protecting against immorality, the church often over-corrects by demonizing heterosexual friendships. And a huge culprit is stereotyping men as unable to control desire, and thus all women becoming a temptation for all men. *All* relationships have the risk of being sexualized. Men with men, women with women, men with children... etc. Sometimes sin is a consequence of becoming pathological in an area. Fear of being around women because the relationship might become sexualized can breed sexualization in any male/female relationship. Learning to have healthy relationships with the other gender is actually a sign of health, not risking temptation.

In this context, Matt is a testimony towards what God can do to demonstrate healthy relationships between men and women. Not a morality tale of risk of sin.
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Re: Question about unmarried mothers

Post by dwight92070 » Mon Aug 08, 2016 7:56 am

Morbo,

So in my previous post where I describe my relationship with Dan's wife, or his relationship with my wife, for example, is that what you would call a healthy male-female relationship?

Dwight

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