Dear Ken (or somebody),
Where does this idea of the Ten Commandments being THE MORAL LAW come from, and dividing the law into moral, ceremonial and judicial? The apostles seem to make no such distinctions, only our modern "doctors of divinity".
As for sabbath keeping in the Jewish sense, it has nothing to do with morality, it was right simply because God commanded it. It was a Divine positive command. Right because He who has all authority said so.
Moral law is what was once known as natural law, because it was right in and of itself. Paul refers to natural law in Romans 2:14. Moral law is known to all, to one degree or another, without any knowledge of the Ten Commandments. Many unbelievers are every bit as good morally as Christians.
We see morality naturally influencing our everyday life. When you buy groceries and approach the check stand you get in line, you do not cut into the front of the line. You know and those in line know this would be wrong without being told, without any rule posted. The same effect is naturally understood; morality can be observed in things great and small.
C. S. Lewis spoke eloquently of this. While men may disagree that it is wrong to have more than one wife, men understand that it is not right to have sex with any woman they want.
How can the Ten Commandments be called The Moral Law when so much morality is not found therein? Where is revenge forbidden or drunkenness or consensual sex among the unmarried (or Gays) or divorces on triffling grounds or polygamy?
I do not understand the zeal among Christians concerning the Ten Commandments being posted on monuments, in courtrooms, in schools, ad infinitem. Would that we showed the same zeal for The Sermon on the Mount and Jesus' other teachings!
Suppose the Ten Commandments are posted prominently in school and 16 year old Johnny is planning to get some liquor and seduce his girlfriend. Johnny has heard the Ten Commandments are THE MORAL LAW. He reads them but sees nothing there to disuade him from his plans. So much for the Ten Commandments being the moral law.
If it is said that we do not need the Ten Commandments as a guide in being a Christian it might cause some anxiety. Think instead that we do not need "the ministry of death" to show the way, we have One who is a superior guide.
Perhaps my thoughts are due to my ignorance, I just don't get it. May His Spirit show me if I error in this matter!
God Bless, Homer
The Sabbath
Homer,
If your thoughts are due to ignorance, then you and I are comrades in ignorance. You have stated your case (which agrees essentially with my own outlook) very well. I do think there is some validity in recognising a difference between "moral" commands and "ceremonial" ones, but we don't find them wearing those labels in any biblical passages. When Hosea (and Jesus) said, "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice" (Hos.6:6), I think this sentiment suggests a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws (as do some other passages which I don't have time to site at the moment, as I will be on the air in 15 minutes!). However, I agree with you that the Ten Commandments are not anywhere said to belong, as a group, to a category called "moral law," and that the Sabbath observance is clearly a ceremonial law, as treated by Jesus (Matt.12:1ff) and Paul (Col.2:16-17/ Rom.14:1ff), and by its very nature, it is like other "holy days"--ceremonial .
If your thoughts are due to ignorance, then you and I are comrades in ignorance. You have stated your case (which agrees essentially with my own outlook) very well. I do think there is some validity in recognising a difference between "moral" commands and "ceremonial" ones, but we don't find them wearing those labels in any biblical passages. When Hosea (and Jesus) said, "I desire mercy, and not sacrifice" (Hos.6:6), I think this sentiment suggests a distinction between moral and ceremonial laws (as do some other passages which I don't have time to site at the moment, as I will be on the air in 15 minutes!). However, I agree with you that the Ten Commandments are not anywhere said to belong, as a group, to a category called "moral law," and that the Sabbath observance is clearly a ceremonial law, as treated by Jesus (Matt.12:1ff) and Paul (Col.2:16-17/ Rom.14:1ff), and by its very nature, it is like other "holy days"--ceremonial .
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
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_thrombomodulin
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Sabbath and Creation
Hello,
I have read much of the forum on the Sabbath. Two questions were raised that I did not see an answer to. I have been more or less pursuaded of the "spiritual observation view," but I still have these three questions:
1) It was said : "The Sabbath was around from the beginning even before the law 'And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made' Gen 2:3 Why did God rest if not to set an example surely He did not need to."
The holiness of the Sabbath day was established in the creation week before the fall. Does this give Sabbath observance any special significance that would lead us to observe it literally in the present?
2) It was said : The verse Matt 24:20 seems to suggest a continuing Sabbath: "Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
How is this dealt with in the "spiritual observation view?"
3) It is clearly right to do good on the Sabbath. If I understand the view correctly, then I would conclude it is legitimate to do ordinary work on the Sabbath (for example, to operate a business for profit) on Saturday and Sunday. Am I drawing the correct conclusion or going astray
somewhere?
Thanks,
Peter
I have read much of the forum on the Sabbath. Two questions were raised that I did not see an answer to. I have been more or less pursuaded of the "spiritual observation view," but I still have these three questions:
1) It was said : "The Sabbath was around from the beginning even before the law 'And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made' Gen 2:3 Why did God rest if not to set an example surely He did not need to."
The holiness of the Sabbath day was established in the creation week before the fall. Does this give Sabbath observance any special significance that would lead us to observe it literally in the present?
2) It was said : The verse Matt 24:20 seems to suggest a continuing Sabbath: "Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
How is this dealt with in the "spiritual observation view?"
3) It is clearly right to do good on the Sabbath. If I understand the view correctly, then I would conclude it is legitimate to do ordinary work on the Sabbath (for example, to operate a business for profit) on Saturday and Sunday. Am I drawing the correct conclusion or going astray
somewhere?
Thanks,
Peter
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Hello Peter,
Here are my thoughts on your questions:
1. It is true that God rested on the seventh day, not because He needed to, but in order to communicate something. However, if what He was seeking to communicate was an obligation for man to rest on the seventh day, then He waited at least 2500 years before communicating that message in actual words. We have no indication that anyone, prior to Moses' time, was aware of any obligation of man to perpetually rest each week on the seventh day. Nor is there any biblical evidence that from the time Jesus began to proclaim the kingdom of God (Luke 16:16) that either He or His apostles observed or taught an obligation to observe the biblical sabbath (though we are told that Jesus broke the sabbath--John 5:18)
My impression is that God rested in order to communicate that His job was finished...His job of creation, that is. Nothing remained to be done, and His resting put a big exclamation point on that fact. To me it is just like Christ, who later offered Himself as a sacrifice and announced "It is finished!" (John 19:30), and then "sat down" (Heb.10:11-12), in order to suit the action to the word. It is a dramatic illustration of the fact that, for the purposes of procuring man's redemption (the second "creation"--2 Cor.5:17), nothing remains to be done!
God's resting on the seventh day did, in fact, provide the rationale for His later requiring Israel to regard it as a holy day. Ritually, God's resting from His labors was seen as analogous, I suppose, to Israel's resting from their labors as slaves under Pharaoh--that is, their deliverance and liberation from Egypt. This appears to be one rationale for the sabbath law, as it is given in Deuteronomy 5:14-15.
2. The exhortation to pray for a flight that was neither in winter nor on a sabbath does not suggest any Christian obligation to keep the sabbath laws, since there is nothing in those laws (as given by God) that would necessarily prohibit flight on that day. Winter and the sabbath would both present inconveniences to flight, which is why one should hope to avoid the necessity of escaping at such times.
The problems of travel in winter, with its inclement weather, should be obvious enough. Likewise, flight from Jerusalem on a sabbath day would be most inconvenient, as the city gates would probably be closed and one would not find it possible to purchase supplies for the journey. There is no moral obligation to observe winter as a "black-out" period with respect to travel; nor is there any suggestion here of a moral obligation to avoid travel on the sabbath. God did not forbid the Jews to travel on the sabbath, and Christ puts no prohibition upon the Christians to do so.
3. It is lawful to do good on the sabbath (Matt.12:12), as on other days. Since Christians are only to do good at all times, this statement makes the sabbath the same as all days to the Christian. "The Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath" (Matt.12:8), meaning the Christian's obligation on the sabbath, as on all other days, is to obey the Lord. What higher form of observance of any day could be recommended?
Here are my thoughts on your questions:
1. It is true that God rested on the seventh day, not because He needed to, but in order to communicate something. However, if what He was seeking to communicate was an obligation for man to rest on the seventh day, then He waited at least 2500 years before communicating that message in actual words. We have no indication that anyone, prior to Moses' time, was aware of any obligation of man to perpetually rest each week on the seventh day. Nor is there any biblical evidence that from the time Jesus began to proclaim the kingdom of God (Luke 16:16) that either He or His apostles observed or taught an obligation to observe the biblical sabbath (though we are told that Jesus broke the sabbath--John 5:18)
My impression is that God rested in order to communicate that His job was finished...His job of creation, that is. Nothing remained to be done, and His resting put a big exclamation point on that fact. To me it is just like Christ, who later offered Himself as a sacrifice and announced "It is finished!" (John 19:30), and then "sat down" (Heb.10:11-12), in order to suit the action to the word. It is a dramatic illustration of the fact that, for the purposes of procuring man's redemption (the second "creation"--2 Cor.5:17), nothing remains to be done!
God's resting on the seventh day did, in fact, provide the rationale for His later requiring Israel to regard it as a holy day. Ritually, God's resting from His labors was seen as analogous, I suppose, to Israel's resting from their labors as slaves under Pharaoh--that is, their deliverance and liberation from Egypt. This appears to be one rationale for the sabbath law, as it is given in Deuteronomy 5:14-15.
2. The exhortation to pray for a flight that was neither in winter nor on a sabbath does not suggest any Christian obligation to keep the sabbath laws, since there is nothing in those laws (as given by God) that would necessarily prohibit flight on that day. Winter and the sabbath would both present inconveniences to flight, which is why one should hope to avoid the necessity of escaping at such times.
The problems of travel in winter, with its inclement weather, should be obvious enough. Likewise, flight from Jerusalem on a sabbath day would be most inconvenient, as the city gates would probably be closed and one would not find it possible to purchase supplies for the journey. There is no moral obligation to observe winter as a "black-out" period with respect to travel; nor is there any suggestion here of a moral obligation to avoid travel on the sabbath. God did not forbid the Jews to travel on the sabbath, and Christ puts no prohibition upon the Christians to do so.
3. It is lawful to do good on the sabbath (Matt.12:12), as on other days. Since Christians are only to do good at all times, this statement makes the sabbath the same as all days to the Christian. "The Son of Man is Lord even of the sabbath" (Matt.12:8), meaning the Christian's obligation on the sabbath, as on all other days, is to obey the Lord. What higher form of observance of any day could be recommended?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
In Jesus,
Steve
Steve
Hi Peter. I wanted to weigh in here because I've studied the Sabbath issue extensively and I've also kept the Sabbath, which helped me to understand its God-intended purpose better.
As you may have already read above, I don't believe that Sabbath-keeping is legislated as a requirement today. However, I do believe that it can teach us some valuable lessons about God's plan as well as some common sense Christian living concepts.
I believe that Steve is correct in pointing out God resting on the Sabbath as a kind of exclamation point after finishing the Creation. However, I see more to it than just that. According to Hebrews 4:9-11, entering into the Sabbath "rest" is something that we can and should labor to enter in to. It's not just a past reality, in other words.
Well, what is the Sabbath rest?
Basically - because the proof is a little involved - the Sabbath rest represents resting after having overcome. After Christ overcame the world by conquering death on the cross (John 16:33), He was seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven (John 16:28 and 17:4-5). Right? In a similar fashion, we receive "rest" after we overcome.
On a purely physical level, having one day in seven as a day of rest is good common sense. Rather than fearfully working ourselves to the point of burning out because we don't trust that our physical needs will be met otherwise, we can set aside one day in seven to declare, like Jesus did, that we have accomplished what we set out to do that week. Is this legislated? No. But is it a good idea anyway? Yes.
There are other aspects to God's "rest". Entering into rest, for the Israelites, often meant being at peace with their enemies, for instance (Heb. 4:8; compare Deut. 3:18-22 and Josh. 1:13-15). They were at peace because they had overcome them by military might, so again we see the concept of resting after having overcome. Another example is the biblical fall harvest season, which is also a "rest" because it represents the end of the work it took to harvest the crops (Lev. 23:39).
Entering into "rest" can also happen on other levels than just the physical level. When we overcome a sin or weakness, the result is an end of struggling against it - a "rest". As an example, if a person has poor discipline and is always getting up late so that he can't be on time for school (or work, or whatever), but then overcomes that weakness by developing the habit of getting up on time, the result is "rest". (Hopefully not lack of sleep either, because he'll be going to bed on time the previous evening!)
As far as not having to flee persecution in the winter (after the fall harvest season) or on the Sabbath, the whole point is that one's rest is a God-given blessing. If tribulation or persecution arises to cut that rest short, then it's something we have to deal with. It's an inconvenience, as Steve put it, but for a different reason than he suggested.
As far as working or operating a business for profit on the Sabbath, again, there's no law against it. However, I would still recommend that as much as one is able, one should set aside a day of rest. It's just good common sense, and it's a blessing, not only on us, but on the people whose lives we affect for the better by choosing to rest.
By the way, I'm not talking about not going out to eat because you're "resting". The people who work there have already decided to work on that day, so your patronage or lack thereof won't make any difference to them. I'm talking about one's employees, friends and family who will benefit from one choosing to rest instead of working. Resting can improve one's mood, so we will get along better with the others we deal with on a day-to-day basis. Resting can give us the opportunity to focus on things other than the day-to-day concerns that everyone worries about (Mat. 6:31-34). Not just spiritual things either, but where our lives are going, for example. Do we have a plan for our lives, or are we just letting life take us where it wants to? Do we consider how our lives, as they are now, positively or negatively affect others? And if we took the opportunity to rest and to consider these things, would we be able to benefit not only ourselves, but others also as a result?
Finally, the Sabbath rest is a type of the "rest" which we will enjoy after this life is over (Job 3:11-19, etc.). It represents not only a respite from the trials and tribulations of this life, but entering into the Kingdom of God in reality, as opposed to just in spirit (which is the way it is now). It represents a time of peace which will last forever and the end of the spiritual harvest. Last but not least, it represents having overcome our sins through Christ's strength. It represents all of these things.
Anyway, those are my thoughts...
Damon
As you may have already read above, I don't believe that Sabbath-keeping is legislated as a requirement today. However, I do believe that it can teach us some valuable lessons about God's plan as well as some common sense Christian living concepts.
I believe that Steve is correct in pointing out God resting on the Sabbath as a kind of exclamation point after finishing the Creation. However, I see more to it than just that. According to Hebrews 4:9-11, entering into the Sabbath "rest" is something that we can and should labor to enter in to. It's not just a past reality, in other words.
Well, what is the Sabbath rest?
Basically - because the proof is a little involved - the Sabbath rest represents resting after having overcome. After Christ overcame the world by conquering death on the cross (John 16:33), He was seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven (John 16:28 and 17:4-5). Right? In a similar fashion, we receive "rest" after we overcome.
On a purely physical level, having one day in seven as a day of rest is good common sense. Rather than fearfully working ourselves to the point of burning out because we don't trust that our physical needs will be met otherwise, we can set aside one day in seven to declare, like Jesus did, that we have accomplished what we set out to do that week. Is this legislated? No. But is it a good idea anyway? Yes.
There are other aspects to God's "rest". Entering into rest, for the Israelites, often meant being at peace with their enemies, for instance (Heb. 4:8; compare Deut. 3:18-22 and Josh. 1:13-15). They were at peace because they had overcome them by military might, so again we see the concept of resting after having overcome. Another example is the biblical fall harvest season, which is also a "rest" because it represents the end of the work it took to harvest the crops (Lev. 23:39).
Entering into "rest" can also happen on other levels than just the physical level. When we overcome a sin or weakness, the result is an end of struggling against it - a "rest". As an example, if a person has poor discipline and is always getting up late so that he can't be on time for school (or work, or whatever), but then overcomes that weakness by developing the habit of getting up on time, the result is "rest". (Hopefully not lack of sleep either, because he'll be going to bed on time the previous evening!)
As far as not having to flee persecution in the winter (after the fall harvest season) or on the Sabbath, the whole point is that one's rest is a God-given blessing. If tribulation or persecution arises to cut that rest short, then it's something we have to deal with. It's an inconvenience, as Steve put it, but for a different reason than he suggested.
As far as working or operating a business for profit on the Sabbath, again, there's no law against it. However, I would still recommend that as much as one is able, one should set aside a day of rest. It's just good common sense, and it's a blessing, not only on us, but on the people whose lives we affect for the better by choosing to rest.
By the way, I'm not talking about not going out to eat because you're "resting". The people who work there have already decided to work on that day, so your patronage or lack thereof won't make any difference to them. I'm talking about one's employees, friends and family who will benefit from one choosing to rest instead of working. Resting can improve one's mood, so we will get along better with the others we deal with on a day-to-day basis. Resting can give us the opportunity to focus on things other than the day-to-day concerns that everyone worries about (Mat. 6:31-34). Not just spiritual things either, but where our lives are going, for example. Do we have a plan for our lives, or are we just letting life take us where it wants to? Do we consider how our lives, as they are now, positively or negatively affect others? And if we took the opportunity to rest and to consider these things, would we be able to benefit not only ourselves, but others also as a result?
Finally, the Sabbath rest is a type of the "rest" which we will enjoy after this life is over (Job 3:11-19, etc.). It represents not only a respite from the trials and tribulations of this life, but entering into the Kingdom of God in reality, as opposed to just in spirit (which is the way it is now). It represents a time of peace which will last forever and the end of the spiritual harvest. Last but not least, it represents having overcome our sins through Christ's strength. It represents all of these things.
Anyway, those are my thoughts...
Damon
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_thrombomodulin
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Sabbath and Creation
Steve,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. Your strong biblical argument has caused me to change my views from position #2 to #3 (as you numbered them initially). I have also very much enjoyed listening to your Authority of Scripture series, and I look forward to listening to more from your website.
Damon,
I have not yet had the time to read through your entire post. I need to depart for travel right now. I will give it careful consideration early next week when I return.
I very much appreciate the time both of you have taken.
In Christ,
Peter
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. Your strong biblical argument has caused me to change my views from position #2 to #3 (as you numbered them initially). I have also very much enjoyed listening to your Authority of Scripture series, and I look forward to listening to more from your website.
Damon,
I have not yet had the time to read through your entire post. I need to depart for travel right now. I will give it careful consideration early next week when I return.
I very much appreciate the time both of you have taken.
In Christ,
Peter
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_thrombomodulin
- Posts: 67
- Joined: Sun May 01, 2005 2:32 pm
- Location: Ypsilanti, MI, USA
The Sabbath
Damon,
Sorry I did not get back to replying to you as quickly as I said I would. I had my final exam this past week, and now I'll finally graduate!
I do have a few questions about what you had written, and look forward to your reply.
You suggested three main ideas as the basis for observing the Sabbath.
1) Examples of periods of work and then rest.
2) A principal of overcoming then resting.
3) Practical, Common sense value.
Regarding the first point, the examples are: peace with enemies, harvest season rest, overcoming sin, and Jesus 'rest' after ascension. These involve an indefinite period, an annual period, or a one time occurance. Therefore, it seems that it does provide a good basis for defending a notion of work followed by rest, but it does not provide a basis for observing rest at 7 day intervals. What are your thoughts?
Regarding the second point, I must say that I have not been able to really get a good understanding of your perspective on this yet. It seems that the point of division in yours vs. Steve's view is the interpretation of Hebrews 4.
Hebrews says: "For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His." So which of the following does this mean?
A) A person's salvation is by faith in Christ, and is thus not based on works done in the present.
B) In the future we will rest in heaven. Thus, we rest from the trials and tribulations of this life that we endure serving Christ. (Rev 14:13)
Namely, is the Sabbath rest of Hebrews 4 a present reality or a future event?
One of Steve's arguments is that ceremonial laws, like the Sabbath, are a symbol of something to come in the future. The symbol is no longer observed after its substance (antitype) arrives. According to Col 2:16, Christ is the substance of the Sabbath. Therefore, I understand the rest to be 'option A'. I understand you to believe 'option B,' and would like to know more about why you think that is the correct interpretation.
Regarding the third point, I do agree with the practical value of rest. Periodic resting, however, does not lead me to Sabbath observance. That is, I could rest at irregular intervals, or any day of the week that my work schedule allows. The Sabbath, nevertheless, would be a convient time to do this.
Please let me know what scripture you are using for this:
"...to declare, like Jesus did, that we have accomplished what we set out to do that week." Where is this reference from?
Also, "Christ overcame the world by conquering death on the cross." When I read this verse I do see that Christ has overcome the world. This particular verse does not, however, say that it was through the cross (perhaps this is elsewhere). The past tense is used here ("have") indicating that Jesus' overcoming occured before his death.
Best regards,
Pete
Sorry I did not get back to replying to you as quickly as I said I would. I had my final exam this past week, and now I'll finally graduate!
I do have a few questions about what you had written, and look forward to your reply.
You suggested three main ideas as the basis for observing the Sabbath.
1) Examples of periods of work and then rest.
2) A principal of overcoming then resting.
3) Practical, Common sense value.
Regarding the first point, the examples are: peace with enemies, harvest season rest, overcoming sin, and Jesus 'rest' after ascension. These involve an indefinite period, an annual period, or a one time occurance. Therefore, it seems that it does provide a good basis for defending a notion of work followed by rest, but it does not provide a basis for observing rest at 7 day intervals. What are your thoughts?
Regarding the second point, I must say that I have not been able to really get a good understanding of your perspective on this yet. It seems that the point of division in yours vs. Steve's view is the interpretation of Hebrews 4.
Hebrews says: "For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His." So which of the following does this mean?
A) A person's salvation is by faith in Christ, and is thus not based on works done in the present.
B) In the future we will rest in heaven. Thus, we rest from the trials and tribulations of this life that we endure serving Christ. (Rev 14:13)
Namely, is the Sabbath rest of Hebrews 4 a present reality or a future event?
One of Steve's arguments is that ceremonial laws, like the Sabbath, are a symbol of something to come in the future. The symbol is no longer observed after its substance (antitype) arrives. According to Col 2:16, Christ is the substance of the Sabbath. Therefore, I understand the rest to be 'option A'. I understand you to believe 'option B,' and would like to know more about why you think that is the correct interpretation.
Regarding the third point, I do agree with the practical value of rest. Periodic resting, however, does not lead me to Sabbath observance. That is, I could rest at irregular intervals, or any day of the week that my work schedule allows. The Sabbath, nevertheless, would be a convient time to do this.
Please let me know what scripture you are using for this:
"...to declare, like Jesus did, that we have accomplished what we set out to do that week." Where is this reference from?
Also, "Christ overcame the world by conquering death on the cross." When I read this verse I do see that Christ has overcome the world. This particular verse does not, however, say that it was through the cross (perhaps this is elsewhere). The past tense is used here ("have") indicating that Jesus' overcoming occured before his death.
Best regards,
Pete
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
Reason:
Reason:
Re: The Sabbath
Ah, exams. I remember those. ^_^
Hope you did well!
[snip]
Every now and then, I visit the local Jewish synagogue for their "Torah study". I visited just yesterday and they were discussing Leviticus 23, the chapter which describes all of the various Holy Days. However, it begins with the Sabbath. One of the interesting things that they pointed out is that the text reads (and I'm paraphrasing), 'You shall work six days and rest on the seventh day.' It's not just the day of rest which is commanded, but also the six days of work. The six days of work are part of the same commandment as the one day of rest. So one rests after having worked for the whole week.
Interesting, isn't it?
But as a point in my favor, Look at Colossians 2:17 in the original Greek. The Sabbath, etc., ARE a shadow of things yet to come. Present, not past, tense. If Christ had fulfilled the Sabbath once and for all, wouldn't it be "were" instead of "are"?
Make sense?
Damon
Hope you did well!
[snip]
My thoughts are that God often uses multiple ways of demonstrating the same concept. In other words, there's the annual example of the fall harvest season, and there's the weekly example of the Sabbath.thrombomodulin wrote:Regarding the first point, the examples are: peace with enemies, harvest season rest, overcoming sin, and Jesus 'rest' after ascension. These involve an indefinite period, an annual period, or a one time occurance. Therefore, it seems that it does provide a good basis for defending a notion of work followed by rest, but it does not provide a basis for observing rest at 7 day intervals. What are your thoughts?
Every now and then, I visit the local Jewish synagogue for their "Torah study". I visited just yesterday and they were discussing Leviticus 23, the chapter which describes all of the various Holy Days. However, it begins with the Sabbath. One of the interesting things that they pointed out is that the text reads (and I'm paraphrasing), 'You shall work six days and rest on the seventh day.' It's not just the day of rest which is commanded, but also the six days of work. The six days of work are part of the same commandment as the one day of rest. So one rests after having worked for the whole week.
Interesting, isn't it?
Steve would probably say, the first. I would say, both! I say that because there are almost always multiple correct answers and interpretations when one deals with biblical symbolism. That's one of the reasons why very learned biblical scholars often end up disagreeing vehemently with one another. They take just one interpretation and assume that any other possible interpretations must be wrong.thrombomodulin wrote:Namely, is the Sabbath rest of Hebrews 4 a present reality or a future event?
Well, Christ is certainly the substance of the Sabbath. But the question is, is He the substance of it now, or at His return? I believe the best answer to be, once again, both.thrombomodulin wrote:One of Steve's arguments is that ceremonial laws, like the Sabbath, are a symbol of something to come in the future. The symbol is no longer observed after its substance (antitype) arrives. According to Col 2:16, Christ is the substance of the Sabbath. Therefore, I understand the rest to be 'option A'. I understand you to believe 'option B,' and would like to know more about why you think that is the correct interpretation.
But as a point in my favor, Look at Colossians 2:17 in the original Greek. The Sabbath, etc., ARE a shadow of things yet to come. Present, not past, tense. If Christ had fulfilled the Sabbath once and for all, wouldn't it be "were" instead of "are"?
Errr...for the sake of personal discipline, resting at regular intervals is much healthier. Doing anything whatsoever at regular intervals helps tremendously with personal discipline. Otherwise, there's every excuse in the world for putting something off until later.thrombomodulin wrote:Regarding the third point, I do agree with the practical value of rest. Periodic resting, however, does not lead me to Sabbath observance. That is, I could rest at irregular intervals, or any day of the week that my work schedule allows. The Sabbath, nevertheless, would be a convient time to do this.
This is from John 17:4, although Jesus was talking about having accomplished what the Father had given Him to do during His lifetime, not just in the span of a single week. Nevertheless, the concept is exactly the same.thrombomodulin wrote:Please let me know what scripture you are using for this:
"...to declare, like Jesus did, that we have accomplished what we set out to do that week." Where is this reference from?
Technically yes, Jesus overcame the world even before His death. Why? Because He had endured and triumphed over every obstacle that had been thrown at Him, from Satan's temptations at the beginning of His ministry, to the death of John the Baptist (most people would have had a much stronger and more emotionally reactive display than Jesus did when He learned that John had been wrongfully executed), to the fact that His disciples never seemed to "get it" all through His ministry, to the abuse and rejection by His own people, and so on. Jesus' death on the cross was simply the culmination of it all, but by that time in His life, His track record showed that He would overcome that just the same as He had everything else.thrombomodulin wrote:Also, "Christ overcame the world by conquering death on the cross." When I read this verse I do see that Christ has overcome the world. This particular verse does not, however, say that it was through the cross (perhaps this is elsewhere). The past tense is used here ("have") indicating that Jesus' overcoming occured before his death.
Make sense?
Damon
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_thrombomodulin
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Sabbath Observance
I have a question regarding this statement by Steve:
Andrew Kulikovsky has written about the tense of Hebrews 4 in This Short Article. He offers the following insights:
1) The primary sense of God's katepausen (Greek word for rested) is that of ceasing from labor, and coming to a state of rest.
2) The Greek words indicate that God's rest begins on day 7 and continues to the present. We enter this rest.
3) Regarding verse 10, the tense of katepausen is an aorist active indicative denoting an action (or the beginning of an action) in past time.
These points seem to support the view that the believers enter God's rest in the past (Heb 4:10). Although, Andrew does conclude the article stating that there is both a future and past tense sense to verse 10.
On the other hand, verse 11 states that believers should be "diligent to enter that rest". This suggests a future perfect interpretation of verse 10.
Regarding Col 2:17 Damon correctly points out that the present tense is used.
I am thus lead to the conclusion that there is both a present and future sense of the "Sabbath rest". However, the verse in Col 2:16 provides the reason that Steve's principle can be applied in the present.
I would appreciate any corrections on my reasoning.
In Christ,
Peter
This principle is reasonable, and I agree with it. It's relevance to the Sabbath, however, depends on the premise that Christians enter God's rest in the past. I would appreciate any exegetical arguments that explain the tense of the Sabbath rest in regard to Col 2:16 and Hebrews 4:1-11, as Damon had pointed out.The coming of the anti-type (or "fulfillment of the type") brings an end to the obligation to keep the ritual that was merely its shadow. Thus, Christians, having entered into God's rest, have experienced the fulfillment of the Sabbath, and are under no obligation to observe any day of the week differently that[sic] any other.
Andrew Kulikovsky has written about the tense of Hebrews 4 in This Short Article. He offers the following insights:
1) The primary sense of God's katepausen (Greek word for rested) is that of ceasing from labor, and coming to a state of rest.
2) The Greek words indicate that God's rest begins on day 7 and continues to the present. We enter this rest.
3) Regarding verse 10, the tense of katepausen is an aorist active indicative denoting an action (or the beginning of an action) in past time.
These points seem to support the view that the believers enter God's rest in the past (Heb 4:10). Although, Andrew does conclude the article stating that there is both a future and past tense sense to verse 10.
On the other hand, verse 11 states that believers should be "diligent to enter that rest". This suggests a future perfect interpretation of verse 10.
Regarding Col 2:17 Damon correctly points out that the present tense is used.
On the other hand, the previous verse ("Let no one act as your judge") suggests an application of this principle in the present.The Sabbath, etc., ARE a shadow of things yet to come
I am thus lead to the conclusion that there is both a present and future sense of the "Sabbath rest". However, the verse in Col 2:16 provides the reason that Steve's principle can be applied in the present.
I would appreciate any corrections on my reasoning.
In Christ,
Peter
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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_Aussie Pentecostal
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This is a great subject
I agree with many points
I have started some study on the Sabbath just lately so I am looking forward to more revelation on this subject from reading your replies.
Some Random thoughts
As we read Luk 24: 25 -27 and 44 - 49 we shall see that the Old testament Law of Moses and the Prophets have there fulfilment in Jesus Christ.
Now when we come to look at any interpretation of scripture Steve instructed us to look at the “Law of First mention”
In Gen chp 1 and 2 God rested after creation as Steve pointed out not because he was tried or weary but it is a rest of satisfaction. God counselled according to His of will and swore by His own Oath “Let there be” and it was and was good.
When Adam awoke on the first day it was done, complete finished nothing more to do but say Thank you and enter into the satisfaction of God. This was for mankind benefit eg “the Sabbath was made for man”
God told them to remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy
To understand the Sabbath we need to understand why the 7th Day?
The number 7
7 Days, 7 years (rest the land (Lev 25: 8- 12). 7x7 years Sabbath of Sabbath years year of Jubilee All land returned, debts cancelled and slaves freed,
Entered in to Promised Land they Walked around Jericho 7 days 7 times
David (picture of Christ) was the 7th son of Jesse, When carrying the Ark of Convent take 6 steps then on the 7 seeps stop rest and sacrifice. (thanksgiving), Solomon took 7 years to build the temple. Etc etc
God said the Sabbath was blessed (empowerment of God )
On the seventh day mankind was the enter the purpose of God into God rest of satisfaction But Adam disobeyed and rejected this Rest and began a life of toil , labour and sweat.
The Sabbath day is a door way into the mystery of God
Heb 4: 1- 11 tells us they (Israel ) did not enter in to the Rest of God because it was “not mixed with Faith”
In Rev 5 we have a picture of the ascension of Christ “ Lamb as had been Slain” what did He look like 7 horns , 7 eyes 7 spirits of God complete power perfect God and ever present God
He sat down on the throne of God at the Cross, It is finished , All done ,compete awake “ new mankind” into the satisfaction of God, Enter “His Rest”
“Come to me all who are tired and heavy laden and I will give you rest “ No more burn out come to refreshment God is Satisfied oath of God complete
Our faith mixed with his ability we enter his Rest (satisfaction)
Today if you hear his voice enter His rest
The Holy Communion or Eucharist means thanksgiving and we are told to do this in remembrance of Him
The Sabbath was to be a Day of remembrance
The year of Rest enter his ability in Blessing and provision
Jubilee, enter His abundance and Blessing stop from your labour and remember His has sworn by his oath to complete and provide for your salvation
Sorry for the disjointed thoughts but I’ am in a rush
Maybe I should rest
Every Blessing
John
I agree with many points
I have started some study on the Sabbath just lately so I am looking forward to more revelation on this subject from reading your replies.
Some Random thoughts
As we read Luk 24: 25 -27 and 44 - 49 we shall see that the Old testament Law of Moses and the Prophets have there fulfilment in Jesus Christ.
Now when we come to look at any interpretation of scripture Steve instructed us to look at the “Law of First mention”
In Gen chp 1 and 2 God rested after creation as Steve pointed out not because he was tried or weary but it is a rest of satisfaction. God counselled according to His of will and swore by His own Oath “Let there be” and it was and was good.
When Adam awoke on the first day it was done, complete finished nothing more to do but say Thank you and enter into the satisfaction of God. This was for mankind benefit eg “the Sabbath was made for man”
God told them to remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy
To understand the Sabbath we need to understand why the 7th Day?
The number 7
7 Days, 7 years (rest the land (Lev 25: 8- 12). 7x7 years Sabbath of Sabbath years year of Jubilee All land returned, debts cancelled and slaves freed,
Entered in to Promised Land they Walked around Jericho 7 days 7 times
David (picture of Christ) was the 7th son of Jesse, When carrying the Ark of Convent take 6 steps then on the 7 seeps stop rest and sacrifice. (thanksgiving), Solomon took 7 years to build the temple. Etc etc
God said the Sabbath was blessed (empowerment of God )
On the seventh day mankind was the enter the purpose of God into God rest of satisfaction But Adam disobeyed and rejected this Rest and began a life of toil , labour and sweat.
The Sabbath day is a door way into the mystery of God
Heb 4: 1- 11 tells us they (Israel ) did not enter in to the Rest of God because it was “not mixed with Faith”
In Rev 5 we have a picture of the ascension of Christ “ Lamb as had been Slain” what did He look like 7 horns , 7 eyes 7 spirits of God complete power perfect God and ever present God
He sat down on the throne of God at the Cross, It is finished , All done ,compete awake “ new mankind” into the satisfaction of God, Enter “His Rest”
“Come to me all who are tired and heavy laden and I will give you rest “ No more burn out come to refreshment God is Satisfied oath of God complete
Our faith mixed with his ability we enter his Rest (satisfaction)
Today if you hear his voice enter His rest
The Holy Communion or Eucharist means thanksgiving and we are told to do this in remembrance of Him
The Sabbath was to be a Day of remembrance
The year of Rest enter his ability in Blessing and provision
Jubilee, enter His abundance and Blessing stop from your labour and remember His has sworn by his oath to complete and provide for your salvation
Sorry for the disjointed thoughts but I’ am in a rush
Maybe I should rest
Every Blessing
John
Last edited by Guest on Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm, edited 0 times in total.
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Christianity is not a belief system, but a living dynamic of Christ