Sabbath Observance: 3 Views

[Guest]

Hello dmatic,

Now I'm curious again. Do you keep kosher?

Michelle

[Guest]

Hello Rick,

Are you doubting that Paul's writings were inspired?

My point is, we need to be very careful about saying we're "free from the Law", define exactly what we mean when we say it, and be aware of what we might be conveying when we say it...

Would you mind, if you have time, posting your definition of the phrase "free from the law" means? I'm still not sure I understand what you are trying to get at.

: "Gene Robinson is a fine example of a good Christian" (???).
Think about it.

Did this part of your statement go with the rest? Why would I say, "Gene Robinson is a fine example of a good Christian?"

Michelle

[Guest]

Hi Steve, How can we know if what Paul taught is what Jesus thinks about homosexuality? Was Paul given a new revelation about homosexuality from Jesus?



Rick, Jesus said "He who receives the one i've sent receives me" John 13 , therefore if Paul was sent by Jesus then it appears that Paul can speak for Jesus.

[Guest]

Hi Michelle,

Are you doubting that Paul's writings were inspired?

Of course not! Why would you think that, Michelle?

My point is, we need to be very careful about saying we're "free from the Law", define exactly what we mean when we say it, and be aware of what we might be conveying when we say it..
You replied: Would you mind, if you have time, posting your definition of the phrase "free from the law" means? I'm still not sure I understand what you are trying to get at.

"Free from the Law" as in not having to obey its morals (I didn't mean Jewish rituals, food laws, etc., etc.). Obviously, we don't become Christians through the Law. But once we are Christians, we aren't "free from the Law's moral standards," which are part & parcel in the teachings of Jesus.

I know people here didn't mean to do it, but things they have said could very easily be seen as going right along with what Robinson believes (like how I know Steve and Allyn didn't mean anything like that, even though I 'quoted them' to illustrate what I've been getting at). There are several examples of this in the thread (and I certainly don't think anyone did it intentionally). We need to be crystal clear, folks!

"Gene Robinson is a fine example of a good Christian" (???).
Think about it.
You replied: Did this part of your statement go with the rest? Why would I say, "Gene Robinson is a fine example of a good Christian?"

Yes, it went with the rest.
I don't think you or anyone who posts on this forum would say that!
But statements (posts) on this thread sound "like" what Robinson says.

"We don't have to obey the Law" (or "we are free from it") is, in summary, what some people have posted. I know they meant that we don't (and can't) become Christians through the Law. But if we aren't real clear about what we're saying; "We don't have to obey the Law" could be easily taken to mean "Gene Robinson is a good Christian" (as if the Bible does not disapprove of his homosexual practice)! This is why I put "(???)". Are we saying this??? (or could it be seen as such???). Do you understand now, Michelle?

Rick, Jesus said "He who receives the one i've sent receives me" John 13 , therefore if Paul was sent by Jesus then it appears that Paul can speak for Jesus.

Yes, agreed.
____________________

Jesus and Paul taught the moral Law of Moses:
Immorality is sin and we are not "free from the Law" to commit it!!!
Let's all try to be very clear on this, please, (the point in my (recent) posts).
Thanks, Michelle and Steve. I just felt like I had to say something on this.
Didn't mean to sidetrack the thread. Had to say it, though! God bless.

[Guest]

Did Jesus indicate homosexual acts were sinful? Homosexuals like to argue that He did not, but it isn't hard to find, right there in the passages we've been discussing regarding foods being clean:

Mark 7:18-23 (New King James Version)

18. So He said to them, “Are you thus without understanding also? Do you not perceive that whatever enters a man from outside cannot defile him, 19. because it does not enter his heart but his stomach, and is eliminated, thus purifying all foods?” 20. And He said, “What comes out of a man, that defiles a man. 21. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22. thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lewdness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness. 23. All these evil things come from within and defile a man.”


Definition of fornication (porneia):
Strong's Number: 4202 porneiða
Original Word Word Origin
porneiða from (4203)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Porneia por-ni'-ah
Parts of Speech TDNT
Noun Feminine 6:579,918
Definition
illicit sexual intercourse
adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,

Might just as as well argue Jesus didn't oppose bestiality because He didn't mention it.

I will ask a counter question for those who think the Law of Moses is the standard of morality. Is a Christian allowed to have a concubine? Please provide your answer from the Law of Moses.

[Guest]

Hi Michelle,

Are you doubting that Paul's writings were inspired?

Of course not! Why would you think that, Michelle?

Because you typed this: Hi Steve, How can we know if what Paul taught is what Jesus thinks about homosexuality? Was Paul given a new revelation about homosexuality from Jesus?
I guess I missed your point.
I'm making a point, if anyone sees it.

My point is, we need to be very careful about saying we're "free from the Law", define exactly what we mean when we say it, and be aware of what we might be conveying when we say it..
You replied: Would you mind, if you have time, posting your definition of the phrase "free from the law" means? I'm still not sure I understand what you are trying to get at.

"Free from the Law" as in not having to obey its morals (I didn't mean Jewish rituals, food laws, etc., etc.). Obviously, we don't become Christians through the Law. But once we are Christians, we aren't "free from the Law's moral standards," which are part & parcel in the teachings of Jesus.

I asked you what you meant by "free from the law." You said "'free from the law' as in not having to obey its morals." Ok, I guess we do have a difference in definitions because I follow the law of Christ which, coincidently, is the same morality found in the Mosaic law. When I say "free from the law" I mean free from the ritual and civil laws that identified the Hebrews as God's covenant people before Christ and the new covenant.

I know people here didn't mean to do it, but things they have said could very easily be seen as going right along with what Robinson believes (like how I know Steve and Allyn didn't mean anything like that, even though I 'quoted them' to illustrate what I've been getting at). There are several examples of this in the thread (and I certainly don't think anyone did it intentionally). We need to be crystal clear, folks!

"Gene Robinson is a fine example of a good Christian" (???).
Think about it.
You replied: Did this part of your statement go with the rest? Why would I say, "Gene Robinson is a fine example of a good Christian?"

Yes, it went with the rest.
I don't think you or anyone who posts on this forum would say that!
But statements (posts) on this thread sound "like" what Robinson says.

"We don't have to obey the Law" (or "we are free from it") is, in summary, what some people have posted. I know they meant that we don't (and can't) become Christians through the Law. But if we aren't real clear about what we're saying; "We don't have to obey the Law" could be easily taken to mean "Gene Robinson is a good Christian" (as if the Bible does not disapprove of his homosexual practice)! This is why I put "(???)". Are we saying this??? (or could it be seen as such???). Do you understand now, Michelle?

Rick, Jesus said "He who receives the one i've sent receives me" John 13 , therefore if Paul was sent by Jesus then it appears that Paul can speak for Jesus.

Yes, agreed.
____________________

Jesus and Paul taught the moral Law of Moses:
Immorality is sin and we are not "free from the Law" to commit it!!!
Let's all try to be very clear on this, please, (the point in my (recent) posts).
Thanks, Michelle and Steve. I just felt like I had to say something on this.
Didn't mean to sidetrack the thread. Had to say it, though! God bless.

Your point is well taken; we need to be sure we are talking about the same thing or conversations can become very muddled. Like this one, for instance.

[Guest]

I don't know of any New testament commands that contradict any from God's Law given through Moses. I'm trying to answer Homer's post so maybe you could read it too, and see where you think I'm missing it.

OK dematic here is a good part of the "Law of Christ"/"Law of the Spirit"/"Royal Law"

Love your enemies, do good to them that hate you
Resist not evil, if a man smite thee on one cheek, turn to him the other
Avenge not yourselves, rather give place unto wrath, and suffer yourselves to be defrauded.
If a man takes away thy goods , ask them not back.
Agree with your adversary, submitting even to wrong for the sake of peace.
Labor not to be rich , be ready to every good work, give to those who ask , relieve the afflicted.
Do not give your alms before men , let not your left hand know what your right hand is doing.
Overcome evil with good.
Bless them that curse you.
Pray for them that dispitefully use you and afflict you.
Grudge not,complain not,condemn not.
Put away anger, wrath, bitterness, and all evil speaking.
Confess your faults to one anothyer.
Be not conformed to the world, love not the world.
Deny all ungodliness and worldly lusts. If your right hand offends you, cut it off.
Servants be faithful, even to bad masters.
Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate.
Owe no man anything.
In case of sin, speak not of it to others, but tell the offending brother of the matter between you and him alone, with a view toward recovery.
Love the Lord your God with all your heart.
Pray always, with brevity and simplicity, pray secretly.
In everything give thanks to God and recognize Him in all your ways.
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Take Christ for an example and follow in his steps.
Let Christ dwell in your heart by faith.
Esteem Christ more highly then all earthly things , yes then your own life.
Confess Christ freely before men.
Beware lest the cares of life or the allurements of pleasure weaken his hold on your heart.
love your neighbor as yourself.
Exercise lordship over no one.
Seek not your own welfare only , not bear your own burdens merely but have regard to those of others.
Let your light shine before men hold forth the word of life, do good to all men as you have the opportunity.
Be blameless and harmless as sons of God.
Be gentle, meek, king hearted, compassionate, merciful, forgiving.
Be sober, grave, sincere and temporate.
Speak the truth every man with his neighbor, put away all lying.
Whatever you do , do it heartily as unto the Lord.
Be watchful, vigilant, brave, joyful, courteous and manly.
Be clothed with humility, be patient toward all.
Follow peace with all men.
Sympathise in the joys and sorrows of others.
Follow after things that are true, honest, just, pure, lovely, of good report, virtuous and praiseful.
Refrain from adultery, fornication, uncleanness, drunkeness, covetousness, wrath, strife, sedition, hatred, emulation, boasting, vainglory, envy, jesting and foolish talking.
Do all to the glory of God.
Obey rulers, submit to every ordinance of man fore the Lord's sake.
Be holy in all manner of conversation.
Let your speech be always with grace seasoned with salt.
Give no occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
Render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser's and to God what is God's.
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth.
Blessed are the merciful for they shall receive mercy.
Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called sons of God.
Blessed are the mournful for they shall be comforted.
Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of God.
Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.
Blessed are those persecuted for righteousness sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account . Rejoice and be glad for your reward is in heaven , for so they persecuted the prophets before you.
Let not your heart be troubled.
Be anxious for nothing.
Cast your cares unto the Lord.
Take out the log from your own eye and then you will see clearly to take out the speck from your brother's eye.
Seek first the kingdom of God and it's righteousness and all these things will be added to you.
Sufficient for the day is it's own trouble.

[Guest]

Bravo, Steve and Glory to God in the Highest

[Guest]

I am certainly no defender of homosexuality. But I do take issue with the Online Bible's definition of "porneia" which Homer quoted.

Although the word is usually translated as "fornication", an English word which has taken on a broader meaning, the Greek word refers to what a "pornā" or a "pornos" do.

Now a "pornā" is clearly a prostitute, evident from the three verses in the NT in which the word is found.

By faith Rahab the harlot("pornā") did not perish with those who were disobedient, because she had given friendly welcome to the spies. Hebrew 11:31 RSV

And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot("pornā") justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? James 2:25 RSV

And he said to me, "The waters that you saw, where the harlot("pornā") is seated, are peoples and multitudes and nations and tongues. Revelation 17:15

The word "pornā" is feminine. The masculine counterpart is "pornos". A "pornos" is a man who is a consorter with prostitutes --- a man who, in our day, would be called a "john". The word is found in
I Corinthians 5:11, Eph 5:5 and Hebrews 12:16. Unfortunately, none of the three bring out the meaning clearly as the feminine counterpart does.

Conclusion? A woman who is engaged in "porneia" is engaged in prostitution. A man who is engaged in "porneia" is engaged in consorting with prostitutes.

[Guest]

The homosexual Bishop Gene Robinson of the ECUSA believes we should love God and our neighbor as ourselves, just as Jesus taught. He also believes that laws against homosexuality in the Law of Moses no longer apply for today. You see, "Jesus never 'COMMANDED' against it. I follow 'HIS law not the Law of Moses'"...is exactly what Robinson says.

I think Jesus did teach what (or where) correct sexual activity is when he was asked about divorce:

4 They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce, and to dismiss her.” 5 And Jesus answered and said to them, “Because of the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. 6 But from the beginning of the creation, God ‘made them male and female.’ 7 ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, 8 and the two shall become one flesh’; so then they are no longer two, but one flesh. 9 Therefore what God has joined together, let not man separate.”

If God made "them" male and female, and for this reason the man leaves father and mother to be joined to his wife so that the two become one flesh then it would seem that by process of elimination homosexuality would not be a correct "expression" of human sexual intimacy. In other words, if the reason God made male and female was to become one and be fruitful and multiply, then how could one argue a different type of sexual activity? Jesus didn't have to condemn it, He simply affirmed what marriage is, and where sexual activity (two becoming one flesh) belongs.

If marriage = a+b then marriage cannot mean a+a or b+b.

Not to mention that Paul states:
1 Cor 7:2 Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. 3 Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband.

It seems like if someone needs a sexual partner, it should be of the opposite sex as Paul states.

My point is, we need to be very careful about saying we're "free from the Law", define and explain exactly what we mean when we say that, and be aware of what we might be conveying: "Gene Robinson is a fine example of a good Christian" (???).
Please, please, please, think about it.

I think Paul states this in his letters. We are not "under law" but rather "under grace". So while I understand your concern, I think the focus should be on what Paul meant when he said we are "under grace".

Being under grace does not allow us freedom to sin. Instead it teaches us to live righteous lives. Since you ask about Bishop Gene Robinson, I'd say he's not "under grace" because grace would teach him otherwise, since sexual activity "outside of marriage" (defined as a husband and a wife) is not acceptable per Jesus or Paul.