The Old Testament & Today

[Guest]

Matthew 5:17-20
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus said that He came to fulfill the law and the prophets, and not one jot or tittle will pass away until all is fulfilled. Can you think of anything Jesus left unfulfilled?

Roblaine, since you included verses 19 and 20 in your quote, you must recognize that "doing them and teaching them (these commandments) and "having a righteousness which exceeds that of the scribe and Pharisees" is an important part of "fulfilling the law". Verse 19 begins with, "Whoever therefore...", thus linking what Jesus is about to say with what He has already said about fulfilling the law.

"Fulfilling the law" does not refer to fulfilling prophecy, but to keeping the law. Jesus Himself perfectly kept the Law of God which He spelled out in Matthew 5, 6, and 7. He did not necessarily keep the scribes and Pharisees' interpretation of the Mosaic law.

[Guest]

Paidion,

You wrote:

"Fulfilling the law" does not refer to fulfilling prophecy, but to keeping the law. Jesus Himself perfectly kept the Law of God which He spelled out in Matthew 5, 6, and 7. He did not necessarily keep the scribes and Pharisees' interpretation of the Mosaic law.

I'm confused by your reply. Are you saying that Jesus explained the Mosaic law in Matthew 5, 6, and 7 as opposed to the scribes and Pharisees' interpretation of it? The sermon on the mount goes far beyond The Law does it not? A person who complied with the requirements of the decalogue might not be a good Christian at all.

[Guest]

You are quite right, Homer. The Mosaic law is an impovershed version of the Law of God. The sermon on the mount expresses the heart of the true Law of God to which John Montgomery referred as "The Law above the law". It was the true Law of God which Jesus always obeyed by choice.

That was the Law which He so aptly taught as recorded in Matt 5, 6, and 7. That was the Law of which He said, "He who hears these words of mine and does them is like a wise man who buils his house upon a rock." When difficult times come against such a man, he will stand and not be overcome.

[Guest]

Paidion wrote:

Robin
Roblaine, since you included verses 19 and 20 in your quote, you must recognize that "doing them and teaching them (these commandments) and "having a righteousness which exceeds that of the scribe and Pharisees" is an important part of "fulfilling the law". Verse 19 begins with, "Whoever therefore...", thus linking what Jesus is about to say with what He has already said about fulfilling the law.

"Fulfilling the law" does not refer to fulfilling prophecy, but to keeping the law. Jesus Himself perfectly kept the Law of God which He spelled out in Matthew 5, 6, and 7. He did not necessarily keep the scribes and Pharisees' interpretation of the Mosaic law.

Hi Paidion,
I'm still a little confused here. My understanding is that Jesus was a fulfillment of the 4th commandment/ritual. Of course God did command the Sabbath be kept holy by Israel; it was none the less a shadow of what was to come, much like passover, and the feast of tabernacles.

From what I read in your responce to Homer it seems that we are on the same page. Maybe you could tell me if I'm not undersating you correctly.

Thank you,
Robin

[Guest]

Roblaine, my understanding is that there has always been a True Law of God which He wants man to fulfill --- not for His own benefit ("Who can give Him a gift?" but for man's benefit.

Seeing the weakness of the Israelites, He gave an inferior version of that Law, which, inferior as it was, would still have benefitted the Israelites had they succeeded in keeping it.

When Christ appeared, and expressed the True Law of God in the Sermon on the Mount, He went to the heart of what the Father really wanted. Not only that, but because He shed His precious blood on behalf of man, He provided the enabling grace necessary to carry out that true law.

As for the Sabbath commandment, as you say, that was a picture of something deeper. Justin Martyr in his Dialogue With Trypho (Trypho was of the Jewish faith) said a number of things to show Trypho and his companions how Christians keep the True Sabbath:

This translation is taken from volume 1 of The Ante-Nicene Fathers.

Justin Martyr was a Christian who lived in the first half of the second century. In a discussion with Trypho and a number of other Jews, he had the following to say (titles mine):

Why God Commanded the Jews to Observe the Sabbath
God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, on account of your unrighteousness, and that of your fathers...
Ch.21
For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know the reason they were enjoined to you
— namely on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts.

Ch.18
God Is Ever the Same
But if we do not admit this, we shall be liable to fall into foolish opinions, as if it were not the same God who existed in the times of Enoch and all the rest, who neither were circucised after the flesh, nor observed Sabbaths, nor any other rites... or that God has not wished each race of mankind to perform the same righteous actions, to admit which, seems ridiculous and absurd.

Ch24
Before Moses the Righteous Did Not Sabbatize
Moreover, all those righteous men already mentioned [Abel, Enoch, Noah], though they kept no sabbaths were pleasing to God.

Ch19
Surely Such Observances Are Unnecessary Now
Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observances of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices before Moses, no more need is there of them now.

Ch23
Nature Does Not Keep the Sabbath
Do you not see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths?

Ch23
God Does Not Keep the Sabbath
Be not offended at, or reproach us with, the bodily circumcision with which God created us; and think it not strange that we drink hot water on the Sabbaths, since God directs the government of the universe on this day equally as on all others.

Fire would have been necessary to heat the water. This was expressly forbidden on the Sabbath day.

How to Keep the Sabbath Under the New Covenant
The new law requires you to keep perpetual Sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious! ... The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances. If there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so, if any adulterer, let him repent. Then he has kept the sweet and true Sabbaths of God!

Justin doubtless got this teaching about the true Sabbath from Hebrews chapters 3 and 4.

So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God; for whoever enters God’s rest also ceases from his own labours as God did from His.
Hebrews 4:9,10

[Guest]

Roblaine, my understanding is that there has always been a True Law of God which He wants man to fulfill --- not for His own benefit ("Who can give Him a gift?" but for man's benefit.

Seeing the weakness of the Israelites, He gave an inferior version of that Law, which, inferior as it was, would still have benefitted the Israelites had they succeeded in keeping it.

When Christ appeared, and expressed the True Law of God in the Sermon on the Mount, He went to the heart of what the Father really wanted. Not only that, but because He shed His precious blood on behalf of man, He provided the enabling grace necessary to carry out that true law.

As for the Sabbath commandment, as you say, that was a picture of something deeper. Justin Martyr in his Dialogue With Trypho (Trypho was of the Jewish faith) said a number of things to show Trypho and his companions how Christians keep the True Sabbath:

This translation is taken from volume 1 of The Ante-Nicene Fathers.

Justin Martyr was a Christian who lived in the first half of the second century. In a discussion with Trypho and a number of other Jews, he had the following to say (titles mine):

Why God Commanded the Jews to Observe the Sabbath
God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath, and imposed on you other precepts for a sign, on account of your unrighteousness, and that of your fathers...
Ch.21
For we too would observe the fleshly circumcision and the Sabbaths, and in short all the feasts, if we did not know the reason they were enjoined to you
— namely on account of your transgressions and the hardness of your hearts.

Ch.18
God Is Ever the Same
But if we do not admit this, we shall be liable to fall into foolish opinions, as if it were not the same God who existed in the times of Enoch and all the rest, who neither were circucised after the flesh, nor observed Sabbaths, nor any other rites... or that God has not wished each race of mankind to perform the same righteous actions, to admit which, seems ridiculous and absurd.

Ch24
Before Moses the Righteous Did Not Sabbatize
Moreover, all those righteous men already mentioned [Abel, Enoch, Noah], though they kept no sabbaths were pleasing to God.

Ch19
Surely Such Observances Are Unnecessary Now
Remain as you were born. For if there was no need of circumcision before Abraham, or of the observances of Sabbaths, of feasts and sacrifices before Moses, no more need is there of them now.

Ch23
Nature Does Not Keep the Sabbath
Do you not see that the elements are not idle, and keep no Sabbaths?

Ch23
God Does Not Keep the Sabbath
Be not offended at, or reproach us with, the bodily circumcision with which God created us; and think it not strange that we drink hot water on the Sabbaths, since God directs the government of the universe on this day equally as on all others.

Fire would have been necessary to heat the water. This was expressly forbidden on the Sabbath day.

How to Keep the Sabbath Under the New Covenant
The new law requires you to keep perpetual Sabbath, and you, because you are idle for one day, suppose you are pious! ... The Lord our God does not take pleasure in such observances. If there is any perjured person or a thief among you, let him cease to be so, if any adulterer, let him repent. Then he has kept the sweet and true Sabbaths of God!

Justin doubtless got this teaching about the true Sabbath from Hebrews chapters 3 and 4.

So then, there remains a sabbath rest for the people of God; for whoever enters God’s rest also ceases from his own labours as God did from His.
Hebrews 4:9,10

[Guest]

Allyn asked:

Is this what you would call straining out the gnat? Please let the article speak for itself and try not to dismiss it all because of one paragraph that may offend you.

No, I would not call it such. It appears that I'm getting off on the "wrong foot" here, but the last paragraph seemed to be a good example of the attitude I found disturbing. Your writng does not "offend" me, nor cause me to stumble because it's deception is easily seen.

I'm dismayed because the article shows not love for God. Love for God is usually described for us in scripture as "Keeping His commandments". The ease with which you dismiss love for God is, to me, disturbing. Sorry.

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

roblaine asked:

Jesus said that He came to fulfill the law and the prophets, and not one jot or tittle will pass away until all is fulfilled. Can you think of anything Jesus left unfulfilled?

Actually, Jesus said that not one jot or tittle would be "in effect" until heaven and earth passed away!

Yes, there are many things that are not yet "fulfilled" that the Law and the Prophets describe!

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Roblaine, maybe I could ask you to define what you mean by "fulfill".

I agree that Jesus has come to fulfill the Law, and that we should walk as He did, in obedience to His Father's commandments. He also came to take away our sins, but people still sin by transgressing God's Law, so in my perspective, He is yet in the process of fulfilling that purpose.

I still pray for God's Kingdom to come, and for His will to be done, so it appears to me, that God's Kingdom and His will are not yet "fulfilled" here as in heaven. Do you agree?

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Roblaine, maybe I could ask you to define what you mean by "fulfill".

I agree that Jesus has come to fulfill the Law, and that we should walk as He did, in obedience to His Father's commandments. He also came to take away our sins, but people still sin by transgressing God's Law, so in my perspective, He is yet in the process of fulfilling that purpose.

I still pray for God's Kingdom to come, and for His will to be done, so it appears to me, that God's Kingdom and His will are not yet "fulfilled" here as in heaven. Do you agree?

Peace, dmatic

dmatic,
You make a good point in saying that "we should walk as He did". Does Jesus strike you as one who is hung up on Sabbath Keeping?

Matthew 12:1-13
1 At that time Jesus went through the grainfields on the Sabbath. And His disciples were hungry, and began to pluck heads of grain and to eat. 2 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to Him, "Look, Your disciples are doing what is not lawful to do on the Sabbath!" 3 But He said to them, "Have you not read what David did when he was hungry, he and those who were with him: 4 how he entered the house of God and ate the showbread which was not lawful for him to eat, nor for those who were with him, but only for the priests? 5 Or have you not read in the law that on the Sabbath the priests in the temple profane the Sabbath, and are blameless? 6 Yet I say to you that in this place there is One greater than the temple. 7 But if you had known what this means, 'I desire mercy and not sacrifice,' F51 you would not have condemned the guiltless. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord even F52 of the Sabbath." 9 Now when He had departed from there, He went into their synagogue. 10 And behold, there was a man who had a withered hand. And they asked Him, saying, "Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?"--that they might accuse Him. 11 Then He said to them, "What man is there among you who has one sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will not lay hold of it and lift it out? 12 Of how much more value then is a man than a sheep? Therefore it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath." 13 Then He said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." And he stretched it out, and it was restored as whole as the other.

Jesus labored on the Sabbath, and so did his disciples. It is lawful to good on the Sabbath even if it requires that I work or carry a burden. But for a Christians of course, it is only lawful to do good everyday. Why should I cease from doing good on Saturday? Jesus Himself didn't take Saturday off. I fact, I believe Jesus intentionally worked on the Sabbath.

John 5:17-18
17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working." 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

So we can agree on this, that we should do as Jesus did.

Robin