Head coverings

[Guest]

Thanks for the description of your conviction regarding headcoverings.

A few questions for you:

A woman’s hair is not for display. Although she may not realize it, most men are VERY attracted to a woman’s hair.

What is the basis for this statement? It seems to be a generalization. I find myself attracted to my wife's hair, but only because it is attached to her.



In Steve's article, he wrote:

God stated a principle in Dueteronomy 19:15, which is quoted by Jesus and by Paul and alluded to in no less than four times in the New Testament. It is this: “by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established (see Matthew 18:16/John 8:17/II Corinthians 13:11/I Timothy 5:19). Practices that have universal application to all Christians (e.g. baptism, the Lord’s Supper, etc.) generally are confirmed repeatedly in Scripture. Typically, we can find them 1) in the teaching of Jesus, 2) in the apostolic practice in Acts, and 3) in the teaching of the epistles. If there is a universal requirement upon all Christian women to veil themselves, it would represent an important and peculiar responsibility, and it would be strange to find it mentioned only one time in Scripture, in a passage full of ambiguities that challenge every honest interpreter.

How would you answer this?

[Guest]

Thanks for the description of your conviction regarding headcoverings.

A few questions for you:

A woman’s hair is not for display. Although she may not realize it, most men are VERY attracted to a woman’s hair.

What is the basis for this statement? It seems to be a generalization. I find myself attracted to my wife's hair, but only because it is attached to her.

Well, like I had said, one of the principles of head covering is modesty. “that women adorn themselves in modest apparel.” Women who display their beauty, in whatever form that may take, draw men away from their created purpose. It appeals to their base nature, and tempts them to indulge the passions of their bodies. Man doesn’t bring glory to God when he is sinning. A woman’s hair has just the amount of appeal as the rest of her body. That’s why I think her hair should be covered, just as the rest of her body is covered. By displaying her hair, does she really give glory to God? Most often, I’ve found, her hair glorifies herself. Remember, woman > man > Christ > God.

I believe that God wants his people to avoid that which is suggestive, seductive, or bold. There is a call to “shamefacedness” that we see throughout the Scriptures. For many men, hair which is styled and permed, or even just left flat can really be seductive. That’s my opinion anyway. “let no man glory in men” 1 Cor. 3:21.

Without getting into the gory details, I believe that the instruction in Timothy is directed primarily to women because women’s bodies are generally the focus of the natural man’s lustful attention. Our culture proves this daily. Where do men’s eyes naturally go? The Christian man has to ask the Lord for grace and “bounce” his eyes off a lady, whenever they go to a place he shouldn’t be looking at.

“Lust not after her beauty in thine heart” Prov. 6:25.

In Steve's article, he wrote:

God stated a principle in Dueteronomy 19:15, which is quoted by Jesus and by Paul and alluded to in no less than four times in the New Testament. It is this: “by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established (see Matthew 18:16/John 8:17/II Corinthians 13:11/I Timothy 5:19). Practices that have universal application to all Christians (e.g. baptism, the Lord’s Supper, etc.) generally are confirmed repeatedly in Scripture. Typically, we can find them 1) in the teaching of Jesus, 2) in the apostolic practice in Acts, and 3) in the teaching of the epistles. If there is a universal requirement upon all Christian women to veil themselves, it would represent an important and peculiar responsibility, and it would be strange to find it mentioned only one time in Scripture, in a passage full of ambiguities that challenge every honest interpreter.

How would you answer this?

I’m not quite sure I see Steve’s point. There is a universal exhortation to be modest and obedient and submissive, isn’t there? “adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety” In my view, headcovering is a form of modesty, submission, and obedience to God’s order. Practices that have universal application are not limited to the sacraments. “observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” Matt. 28:20.

Steve, if you’re around somewhere lurking in the forum and happen to see this post, could you tell me of a case where women shouldn’t cover their heads?

Now, it is generally believed that young women should start covering when they either 1) reach the age of accountability or 2) become Christians. Some women choose to remove the covering at night when sleeping and when taking baths, etc.

[Guest]

Thanks Loaves,

You give a very good argument for your position, much of which I can agree with. However, I remain unconvinced about the head covering thing for a couple of reasons:

#1. Like Schoel quoted above, there were many opportunities for the apostles to put this requirement in scripture where women were specifically addressed (pastoral epistles), but it was only given to the Corinthians. Even in the Jerusalem council the apostles said:

Acts 15:23-29
The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,

To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:

Greetings.

24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised and keep the law'--to whom we gave no such commandment-- 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.
NKJV




#2. I don't know how you would determine from this passage that the head coverings we see today meet the requirements. How do we know it doesn't include the face (which is on the head) like Muslim women do?

[Guest]

#1. Like Schoel quoted above, there were many opportunities for the apostles to put this requirement in scripture where women were specifically addressed (pastoral epistles), but it was only given to the Corinthians. Even in the Jerusalem council the apostles said…

All Scripture is profitable. While some passages in Scripture are not meant for us to deduce doctrines from (“Paul quarreled with Barnabas”), all Scripture is given to us for a purpose.

In Corinthians, Paul writes about God’s authoritative “headship” order. It is God > Christ > Man > Woman. Was that meant only for them?

Throughout Paul’s epistles, he will occasionally differentiate between “commandments of Paul” and “commandments of the Lord.” For example a few chapters back, “I speak this by permission, and not of commandment.”

But in Chapter 11, he doesn’t seem to do that.

#2. I don't know how you would determine from this passage that the head coverings we see today meet the requirements. How do we know it doesn't include the face (which is on the head) like Muslim women do?

Well, the goal of the head covering is to do what, primarily? It is the symbolize the order God has set up. Christ is in submission to God. Man is in submission to Christ. Woman is in submission to man. One who is under authority submits to the will of the leader. The woman’s submission brings glory and honor to her husband who, in turn, brings glory to God, even as the church brings honor and glory to Christ. Eph. 5:22-24.

The goal is to direct glory away from her hair and onto God. The glory resides chiefly in her hair. Her face? Not primarily. Alhtough some Hutterite women cover the majority of their head, I don’t advocate that. But a woman’s glory is her hair. The Bible says so. This human glory competes with the glory that belongs to God. Like I mentioned, angelic beings covered themselves with what? Their wings. It seems they covered their glory to give it all to God.

Satan exalted himself to be as the Most High. He revealed his glory in competition with God’s glory. When he did this, he was cast down. (Isaiah 14:12-15)

Likewise, I believe the woman must cover her glory so that she doesn’t compete with God’s glory, by dishonoring her head, by not covering.

A modest wife will keep the glory of her hair and body for her husband. As she directs glory away from herself and onto God, she will be honored.

Muslim women have an entirely different motivation for covering their heads. If orthodox Muslim women don’t cover their heads, a male Muslim relative is obligated to kill her. That, of course, would never happen in Christian circles.

A Christian women should do it from her heart and because she wants to, not because she will burn if she doesn’t.

[Guest]

Well, like I had said, one of the principles of head covering is modesty. “that women adorn themselves in modest apparel.” Women who display their beauty, in whatever form that may take, draw men away from their created purpose. It appeals to their base nature, and tempts them to indulge the passions of their bodies. Man doesn’t bring glory to God when he is sinning. A woman’s hair has just the amount of appeal as the rest of her body. That’s why I think her hair should be covered, just as the rest of her body is covered. By displaying her hair, does she really give glory to God? Most often, I’ve found, her hair glorifies herself. Remember, woman > man > Christ > God.

I would completely agree that the Scriptures teach modest dress.

However, under your logic above (in red), you could also make a case that women must not expose their faces or eyes or must be kept from any situation where they may encounter a man, lest they cause a man to desire them. This begins to lean towards the religious legalism of certain Islamic proponents.

IMHO, Jesus defined lust as primarily a problem in the hearts of men, Matthew 5:27 - 28. While I am a proponent of women dressing modestly, lust comes from a sinful heart in men and must be addressed there.

I am in no way implying that those that hold to this view have a problem with this, but am speaking in generalities based on the above statement.

I appreciate your openness and willingness to dialogue.

[Guest]

However, under your logic above (in red), you could also make a case that women must not expose their faces or eyes or must be kept from any situation where they may encounter a man, lest they cause a man to desire them. This begins to lean towards the religious legalism of certain Islamic proponents.

IMHO, Jesus defined lust as primarily a problem in the hearts of men, Matthew 5:27 - 28. While I am a proponent of women dressing modestly, lust comes from a sinful heart in men and must be addressed there.

Schoel: I agree that sin comes from within. Mark 7:21. But it eventually materializes.

But I also advocate that neither women nor men should cause each other to stumble. 1 John 2:10.

If a gal really loves the Lord, I believe she should love her brother in Christ enough so as to not cause him to stumble.

And she should take extra pains to do that. And if that means cover her face, then so be it. There are a lot less destructive things a woman could do. Now, I'm not advocating a full-face covering because men usually are drawn to hair, since the Bible states that her hair is her glory. The emphasis is always on the hair. But when a woman flaunts her beauty relating to her face by distorting it with make-up or what have you, wouldn’t that cause some to stumble? Wouldn’t that be directing glory away from God and onto herself? In cases like that, I would have to deal with it, but we are not discussing that situation.

Remember, the objective is to glorify God. When I said “Women who display their beauty, in whatever form that may take, draw men away from their created purpose,” what did I mean? Draw men away from what? From thinking pure thoughts? Well, yes, but I was also pointing out that it draws men away from glorifying God.

Now tell me. If a sister is modestly dressed and her head covered are you really tempted? If the sister sincerely desires to reflect any glory she has back to God, her inner beauty will strike you; not her external beauty. If she is doing a good job of it, I tell you, you won’t be tempted.

When I said “A woman’s hair has just the amount of appeal as the rest of her body,” I meant it when she directs glory onto herself. When she mirrors the glory back to God, I pray, that won’t happen.

And likewise the man. The man should make sure he is not causing anyone to stumble.

- - - - - - -

On a side note, consider this logic:

<b>Syllogism 1</b>
Praying with an uncovered head is a disgrace
Having a shaved head is the same as praying with an uncovered head
Therefore, having a shaved head is a disgrace

<b>Syllogism 2</b>
If it is a disgrace for a woman to have a shaved head, she should cover her head
It is a disgrace for a woman to have a shaved head - <i>see syllogism 1</i>
Therefore, a woman should cover her head

- - - - - - -

And I want everyone to know that I’m not saying that everyone has to believe exactly the way I do. This is what the Lord has revealed to me from the Scriptures.

"The watchmen who went about the city found me. They struck me, they wounded me; the keepers of the walls took my veil away from me." - Song of Solomon 5:7

Yours in Jesus,

[Guest]

Some women choose to remove the covering at night when sleeping and when taking baths, etc.

Do you mean most women keep them on all the time? I hope you don't mind me asking...I'm just curious...are you married? If so does your wife keep her covering on all the time?

[Guest]

On a side note, consider this logic:

Syllogism 1
Praying with an uncovered head is a disgrace
Having a shaved head is the same as praying with an uncovered head
Therefore, having a shaved head is a disgrace

Syllogism 2
If it is a disgrace for a woman to have a shaved head, she should cover her head
It is a disgrace for a woman to have a shaved head - see syllogism 1
Therefore, a woman should cover her head

I dunno, loaves. Why not:
a. Praying with an uncovered head is a disgrace
b. Therefore, a woman should cover her head when she prays

It saves a lot of words.

[Guest]

I will add my two cents. I became interested in this subject some time back and read numerous papers on it presenting just about every argument you can imagine. I have never bought the idea that Paul's statement "...if anyone wants to be contentious, we have no such custom..." means that no other churchs practice what he is advocating. That would be like making an elaborate argument based on multiple reasons and then concluding by saying, in effect, "if you do not like my instructions, then forget it because no one else does it either"!

It also seems very improbable that being contentious is a custom. More of a fault.

I have concluded (for now at least) that the problem in Paul's mind was a failure to observe gender distinction. As you are probably aware, under the Mosaic Law this was a very serious matter. To me, this would be a practice that Paul would expect to see maintained in all the churches, in some appropriate form.

Interestingly one article I read stated that Corinth at the time was predominately a Roman colony and that there is well documented proof that the Romans at that time had a practice of pulling a hood over their heads during prayer to their Gods, and that Paul is actually objecting to this practice by the men while making an exception for the women.

Now if I understood why hair was brought into the discussion!

[Guest]

loaves,

Thanks for sharing your viewpoint on this. It has never been my intention to convince you out of your conviction, but rather to explore both sides of the issue.

Regarding a woman's beauty, I'm not sure that it must always be viewed in a sinful way. Creation itself displays amazing beauty, yet points to God as the Creator of that beauty.

I respect any Christian's decision to take the steps they feel is necessary to avoid stumbling others.