Backlash over "A Vision for Children"

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_darin-houston
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Post by _darin-houston » Tue Jun 17, 2008 3:21 pm

TK wrote:Mograce2u wrote:
It seems they may have fallen into the idea that God now somehow owes them something.


Doesnt God owe them something? I would argue "yes" although saying it like that is a tad distasteful. God would owe them, it would seem, what He promises. He promises to meet their basic needs. If we cant rely on God's promises, what can we rely on? Saying that God owes us something sounds kind of harsh, but is God not faithful in what he promises?

The issue then, is what constitutes a need vs a want. for example, is a mortgage payment a need or a want? I would argue that a reasonable mortgage is not a want, but a need. of course i could be dead wrong about that.

TK
All God gives us is due to His good pleasure consistent with His character. Just because He will be faithful to His word, He does not do it out of some binding obligation to us. We Americans tend to think in terms of our "rights" with respect to our sovereign. This is a pretty modern view and probably not the right way to view our relationship with our Father and Christ as King and Lord in a non-Constitutional monarchy.

I would argue that a morgage payment is actually not a need, and feel some pricking at my own conscience at times over my own mortgage. With my interest rate, and the fact that I do live beneath my means with much less home than I could "afford," I justify it as a wise stewardship over renting and saving for an outright purchase I can afford.

Renting an inexpensive apartment can actually be a very wise choice for a family going through a tough time. So, yes -- housing of some sort can be seen as a need, but I would dare say that a mortgage is not.
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Post by _TK » Tue Jun 17, 2008 4:26 pm

darin wrote:
Just because He will be faithful to His word, He does not do it out of some binding obligation to us.
agreed- but is it wrong to rely on God's promises on that basis? When Jesus talked about the birds of the air and the lilies of the field and how God will take care of his own much more so than those things, is it wrong to have the mindset that God will, therefore, take care of me? No one I know goes around saying that God owes them something; rather people simply have trust that what He says He will do, He will do.

Of course I suppose it is easy to misunderstand the promises. I think it is rather easy to state (and something of a cop-out) that God only promises to take care of our most basic of necessities (i.e. one change of clothes, a shack with a tin roof, and a bowl of gruel a day). after all if that is all that God's promises entail for the faithful Christian, what kind of promise is that? you don't need God for that. doesnt God want to bless his faithful followers? Do you want your children, who you love, to live in poverty? Do you think God wants that for those He loves? I dont think He wanted it for the Israelites (see the end of Deut)- they just blew it.

Believe me, I am no adherent to the prosperity gospel, and I will admit I am playing something of a devil's advocate here. But to say that God's promises of provision applies to only the most meager modes of survival possible seems a little hollow, not to mention dishonoring to God.

TK
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"Were not our hearts burning within us? (Lk 24:32)

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Post by _darin-houston » Tue Jun 17, 2008 8:13 pm

TK wrote:agreed- but is it wrong to rely on God's promises on that basis?
when we rely on them as of some sort of "right," or obligation of God, I think.
TK wrote:When Jesus talked about the birds of the air and the lilies of the field and how God will take care of his own much more so than those things, is it wrong to have the mindset that God will, therefore, take care of me? No one I know goes around saying that God owes them something; rather people simply have trust that what He says He will do, He will do.
I do have trust that He will do what He says, but I think He clearly values our obedience and deep relationship with Him over and above any wish that we have "comforts."
TK wrote:Of course I suppose it is easy to misunderstand the promises. I think it is rather easy to state (and something of a cop-out) that God only promises to take care of our most basic of necessities (i.e. one change of clothes, a shack with a tin roof, and a bowl of gruel a day). after all if that is all that God's promises entail for the faithful Christian, what kind of promise is that? you don't need God for that. doesnt God want to bless his faithful followers? Do you want your children, who you love, to live in poverty? Do you think God wants that for those He loves? I dont think He wanted it for the Israelites (see the end of Deut)- they just blew it.
Again, I think He wants us to prosper for His purposes and to have abundance for His kingdom's sake, but that He will prefer a struggle on our part if it works for His purposes and our deepening of Faith and obedience.
TK wrote:Believe me, I am no adherent to the prosperity gospel, and I will admit I am playing something of a devil's advocate here. But to say that God's promises of provision applies to only the most meager modes of survival possible seems a little hollow, not to mention dishonoring to God.
It's not that simple, I don't think, and He would prefer we were all in the position of Joseph in his role with Pharoah -- of course, look at what Joseph had to endure and prove as to his faith before he was in such a position (and the same could be said for his brothers and father).
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Post by _TK » Tue Jun 17, 2008 9:19 pm

i knew you were going to say something like that. ;)

you are correct, of course.

TK
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Post by _Steve » Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:59 am

I don't have any wisdom to contribute here that has not been said by others already, but I guess I have to take responsibility for the things I teach, and the impact those things have on the lives of others, so I will repeat, in my own way, some important points, suggested by others, but which I would have written if I had discovered this thread sooner.

I do not think everyone needs to do what I am convicted to do, in terms of living a life of trusting God. Each person must act according to the faith that they have, or that they wish to stretch themselves to have. Every Christian should expect his faith to undergo testing. Such testing usually occurs when it seems that God has not lived up to some promise He has made, and His trustworthiness is thus called into question.

In my own life, I have been convicted to trust God about building a family and providing for their sustenance. Of course, I have always also agreed with Paul that having food and raiment, we will with these things be content. Trusting God for things like finances and family size does not work out very well without also being content with, and resigned to, the circumstances that God chooses for us.

I do not have a mortgage. When I moved here to Santa Cruz, I and my three teenaged children moved into a cheap, two-bedroom, one bath, apartment. I now have only two of my children living with me, but we are in the same apartment. I could afford better lodgings, if I did not have the commitments that I have concerning giving away a certain percentage of all my income. However, we are content in this apartment, and I might live here the rest of my life (though I would not mind if the Lord would provide us another house, as He did formerly).

As now, I had no guaranteed income when any of my five children were born, and we lived very much at poverty level when they were young. However, since I value children more than other earthly things, I always have considered myself to be child-rich. It never occurred to us that we were poor, or that it would be nice to have fewer children, so as to free up more money for other things. This was because of our conviction that God values children above other possessions.

I have always assumed that those who follow my teaching about attitudes toward children would be following my teaching on other lifestyle-and-faith issues, so that they would be as happy as I am, whether abased or abounding. Many couples who now have large families because of that message, have seemed to feel as I do about sacrificing comforts and luxuries for the sake of welcoming children into their homes.

If this young couple could move in with parents, or another family until the husband is promoted to the position that will pay enough for them to live independently, they might be able to rent out their house for the amount of the mortgage payment, for a while, and then move back into it when they can afford to pay the mortgage themselves. I do not wish to impose hardship upon them, but they should remember that may young couples go through financially stressful times in the early years, only to find their circumstances eventually improve. If they are faithful in the little that they have, God may entrust them with more in the future.

In any case, I am sorry to hear that their faith is being stretched almost to the breaking point. That is never easy. However, if they choose to be content with God's choices for them, I do not believe they will ever find themselves homeless of starving. I hope they will persevere.
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In Jesus,
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Post by _TK » Fri Jun 20, 2008 7:22 am

Steve-

Thanks for responding. I was hoping you would.

TK
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Post by _TK » Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:24 am

I wanted to give a quick update:

my stepdaughter just recently got a job where she can take her child to work with her.

God is faithful, and good!

TK
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Post by _Steve » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:54 pm

Praise the Lord!
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Post by _Sean » Thu Jul 24, 2008 9:09 pm

That is great news! Patience pays off when you are waiting on God!
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By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another. (John 13:35)

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Post by _STEVE7150 » Sat Jul 26, 2008 3:51 pm

my stepdaughter just recently got a job where she can take her child to work with her.

God is faithful, and good!


What great news! I just wanted to add that i think it's right to expect that God will keep his promises and He did promise to prosper us. I don't think "prosperity" is a dirty word or ungodly and it can allow a believer to be more of a blessing to others.
But in the parable of the Sower we are told that first we see the blade and then the ear and then the full corn in the ear. So finally after the harvest comes then we see the manifestation of God's promise. Thus we normally do not see instant gratification when God keeps a promise.
The question is whether we will keep our faith until the manifestation because that is our responsibility.
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