The Sabbath

[Guest]

Thank you Damon for your post.
I have a friend that is 7th day adventist she says if I dont begin to observe Saturday sabbath, I will go with the Sunday Law...I dont know nor do I care a thing about a Sunday law. She is a close friend and
I personally dont know my bible well enough to talk with her about it.

Thank you

[Guest]

Thanks.

Your friend is talking about a supposed 'mandated Sunday observance' for Christians. There has been debate in Christian circles for a long time on what the so-called "mark of the beast" will be, and certain Christian groups feel that it will be a mandated observance of Sunday as a day of rest instead of the seventh-day Sabbath, probably enacted by the Catholic Church (which they see as the eventual head of the beast). The whole idea is hogwash, but sadly there's no dissuading the people who believe it.

Oh well...

Damon

[Guest]

There have been and still are so-called "blue" laws that prohibit certain types of business from being conducted on Sunday. For instance, here in my state it is illegal for auto dealerships to sell cars on Sunday. Because I keep Sabbath and also work 8-5 Monday through Friday and drive almost an hour each way to work, that makes it very difficult when I try to buy a car. There are also lots of other activities, like banking for example, that businessmen assume I will do on Saturday morning since I can't do it during normal business hours through the week. Getting a plummer on Saturday may cost you a little extra, but getting one on Sunday is outrageous.

The "Sunday Law" already exists in business, even if only unoficially. Only a Sabbath keeper would ever notice.

[Guest]

Also, you can wash a hog, but it is still unclean.

[Guest]

Guest, I'd like to share some of my own experiences as a Sabbath keeper. I came from a background where Sabbath-keeping was done extremely legalistically and people got upset and offended at even the appearance of breaking the Sabbath. I'm saying this for the record, because I've been where you are right now.

Remember when Jesus and the disciples went through the fields to pick grain to eat? People got upset because they considered that to be Sabbath-breaking. But the whole point of the Sabbath was to enjoy rest! It's kind of hard to rest if one is hungry or in some other form of difficult situation, and that was the point that Jesus was making with the people who were accusing them.

Yes, the way the country is set up is that a lot of businesses are closed on Sunday. Well, many of them don't care to deal with the hassle of trying to stay open on Sunday. Either they'd have to deal with a possibly significant fraction of their workforce that would claim Sunday as their day of rest, or they'd lose part of their customer base for the same reason. From a practical standpoint, can you blame them for thinking this way?

Holding it against someone else for inconveniencing you personally is just negative thinking at work. It's not their problem! I understand if banking is difficult to do around your work schedule and as a Sabbath-keeper, but sometimes we need to deal with difficult situations like this with as much grace and dignity as we can. A little creative thinking helps, too.

You might consider doing banking online, for instance. Have your paycheck direct-deposited so that you don't have to physically take it to the bank. If you run a business, consider hiring a pick-up service to take cash and checks to your bank on a regular basis so that you don't have to go yourself.

As far as getting a plumber goes, if it's that inconvenient for you to get plumbing done, then there are a lot of other things that are wrong with your thinking. I have a friend who recently had a plumber come over to fix his toilet at 7 PM on a weeknight. They were there for over two hours. On another occasion, he had someone else come to re-tile the bathroom floor who was there until 10 PM. So you can find people to do what you need done if you really want to, number one, and if you can believe that they're available after hours, number two. Don't fall victim to limited thinking like this!

Damon
PS. My most recent car purchase was at about 7 PM on a weeknight. I simply called up the dealership and asked the guy if he was willing to stay late if I were interested in making a purchase that evening. He agreed.

[Guest]

"Sabbath observance (GK: sabbatismos) remains in effect for the People of God." Hebrews 4:6 My Literal Translation (2005)
"It is therefore the duty of the People of God to keep the Sabbath." Hebrews 4:6 English translation of the Aramaic New Testament (1940)

It is so easy to say that since the New Testament does not restate it in the Gospels, it must not be in effect. Well that is the Liberal approach regarding human sexuality. Christ never restated the prohibition against homosexuality, hence it also must be nullified in the New Covenant right? Nonsense. Each one of the 10 Commandments of God is either cited or dealt with in the Gospels and the Epistles. Love God and Your Neighbor refers to the Decalogue...as it is the summery of them and their intent.
It seems illogical that followers of the Sabbath Lord, who is the Messiah of Israel, would have such an aversion to observance to the fourth commandment. The artificial claim that Israel and the Church are two separate entities under two separate Covenants is so very Marcionite and is shocking.
No one believes that polytheism (1st Commandment), idolatry (2nd Commandment), swearing falsehoods in God's Name (3rd Commandment), Disrespecting Parents (5th Commandment), murder (6th Commandment), adultery (7th Commandment), theft (8th Commandment) perjury (9th Commandment) and coveting (10th Commandment) is permitted in the New Covenant. As a matter of fact all remain in effect for us. So too the Sabbath, as clearly taught by Paul in Hebrews 4:6 Some say that Sabbath observance was instituted by God at Sinia just for Israel. Nonsense. It was known about and recognized since Eden. Israel observed it before the Sinai Covenant was given (Exodus 16: 23-30).
Messiah teaches us that God established the 7th day of the week as the Sabbath for the sake of all Mankind (Gk Anthropoi) not just Israel. Messiah did not say that God established Sabbath for Israel, but for Humanity...all of Adam's seed. This does not mean that Humanity was created for the sake of Sabbath Observance, but that Sabbath Observance was established for the benefit of Humanity. Sabbath was established for mankind in Eden before the Fall and before the Sinai Covenant. It has been passed down from Eden through the Covenants between God and His People.
Lets look at the Book of Acts and see what the Church practice was concerning the Sabbath. In Pisidian Antioch Paul and Barnabbas continued to observed the Sabbath (Acts 13:14-44; 15:21; 16:13; 17:2; 18:14) and preached on it. Paul observed Passover week (Acts 20:6) and even had a saturday night to sunday morning meeting (Acts 20:7-12)...but no Regular Sunday observance.
Paul even instituted among the Asian Churches the Jewish custom of tabulating the prior week's family earnings and alms until after the Sabbath on the first day of the Week. As all business ended at sunset Friday (i.e. the Dawning of Sabbath) and no further business tabulations could be made for that week until the Sabbath was over. "Now concerning the collection for the saints; as I have given instruction to the Galatian Churches, likewise you are to do the same also. On the first day of the week, let each of you put aside and keep in his home whatever he can afford, so that there be no collections when I come. And when I arrive, whomever you select, I will send a letter, to carry with your charitable alms to Jerusalem."
Paul even stated,"Let no one therefore create a disturbance among you about eating or drinking, or about the division of the feast days, the beginning of the months and the day of the Sabbath. These are shadows of things to come; but the whole objective is Messiah." Col. 2:16-17 English translation of the Aramaic Peshitta N.T. (1940)
Paul does not say that we are to reject these things, but that we are not to allow anyone to create a disturbance about them, norshould we allow anyone to critisize us concerning them as Messiah and His Kingdom are the reason for them all, and they foreshadow the Eternal State which is yet to come. Sabbath foreshadows the Eternal rest from our works in Christ here on earth, it signifies Paradise Found.
It can be shown that Sabbath Observance has been part and parcel of Christianity since Messiah's time on earth. Just because it has been suppressed by the Churches under Roman Dominion and their offshoots the Protestants, does not mean it is unbiblical or pointless.
The recognition that the Decalogue is still in effect and must be observed is codified in the Mainline Protestant Churches, the Roman Catholic Church, the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox Churches. Yet those who observe the 1st Day instead of the 7th Day as the Sabbath do so becuase they believe that the Day has been changed by the authority of the "Church" to distinguish Christians from unbelieving Jewry. Only the Ethiopian Orthodox, Eritraean Orthodox, certain Eastern Orthodox and the Thomasine Church of the East actually Observe the Sabbath as well as Sunday.
Either we observe all 10 of God's Commandments, or we observe none. We do not have the authority from Scripture to pick and choose what is and is not God's will. Arguments from silence will not do. Some do not see the reason or benefit of keeping the Sabbath, or some do not see the reason why we cannot switch sabbath from the 7th day to whatever day fits our schedule or anti-Jewish bias. Both groups use seemingly rational arguments, but cannot site one Biblical injunction from Scripture that nullifies the 4th Commandment or releases the People of God from the obedience to these Commandments and the Faith of Christ.

Yes, Love fulfills the Law...but John told us what Love is: keeping the Commandments of God. The first four Commandments define the Love for God, and the last 6 Commands define the Love for our Neighbor. Do we nullify the Law? God Forbid! We affirm the Law in our Lives!

There is One Church of God, and She was established at Sinai on Pentacost 1450 B.C. She broke Her first Covenant with God Her Bridegroom and was estranged from Him. But as He promised, He engaged Her again in a New and Better Covenant and wrote His Decalogue on Her Heart at Pentacost 30 A.D. Israel has always been the Bride of God, and in Messiah God has reclaimed Her and made Her a light unto the Gentiles. The Church is made up of Native Israelites from among the Hebrews (Cultivated Olive Branches) as well as Naturalized Israelites from among the Gentiles (Wild Olive Branches)....even so, the Gospel, Faith, Messiah, Covenant and Law are for Israel. God promised the New Covenant for the whole Nation of Israel (Houses of Israel and Judah) and not with another entity. Therefore the Sabbath that was made for Mankind and enjoined upon Isreal remains in effect for the People of God. There is no other Church save She who was brought out of Egypt and those who have accepted their Davidic King and Messiah.

Contrary to Steve, God has not changed his modus operendi, nor is He a Divorcee like Myself and Steve. He is not divorced from Israel but He only estranged Himself from her for a time. And not all who now claim to be Israel are Israelites under the New Covenant. Dispensationalists say God is a polygamist! God the Father is the Bridegroom of Isreal and Christ is the Bridegroom of the Church! One God with two Covenant Brides! Oy Vay! Steve and Dispensationalists both agree that the Church and Israel are two separate entities...but this "Two House" or "Replacement" theology is unbiblical and is not found in the unbroken teaching of the Church. It is a post reformation theology. Both lead to the idea that Sabbath is for Israel, while the Church is free to do as she pleases. Marcion of Pontus taught this too, yet his position was deemed antinomianistic and heretical.

I love Steve as a Brother though we differ in perspectives on many issues. But anyone who says Sabbath Observance marks you out for Salvation while Sunday Observance marks you out as a follower of the Beast is heretical. They have fallen into the Pharasaic trap! Sabbath was made for mankind, not Mankind for the Sabbath. Protestant Sabbatarians do well so long as their goal is Christ and not elitist cultism and false doctrine like that which pervades the Seventh Day Adventist Movement. Just because you keep Sabbath does not make you a saint, it is Messiah within you and the good works He produces through your life and the fruits of the Spirit which make you a saint. Any Church which claims it is the end all and be all is proud, and Satan fell because of just this arrogance. We all depend upon Messiah for our very Lives as He is the Root to which we all derive our very Life.
I would rather you all keep each day as Sacred, meet daily to break bread and celebrate Christ and do Good works in Christ every day, so that no one can say you do not obey the Commandments. This is the best way! And worship on all days, as that will get you into practice for eternity...because it will be one looooong eternal Sabbath Worship Service.

In Messiah,
H.G. Bp. Mar +Kenat'el Huffman D.Mn.
A.K.A. Ken the thorn in Steve's Side....LOL! Peace Steve!

[Guest]

'The Sabbath, then, in Christ's teaching and ministry was not "pushed into the background" or "simply annulled" to make room for a new day of worship, but rather was made by the Savior the fitting memorial of His Salvation rest available to all who come to Him in faith (Matt. 11:28).
This redemptive meaning of the Sabbath we found exemplified in the fourth chapter of the Epistle to the Hebrews. Here the "Sabbath rest" that "remains...for the people of God" (4:9) is explained to be not a material experience reserved for the Jewish Nation (4:2,8) but rather a permanent and spiritual blessing available to all who enter by faith in God's rest (4:2,3,11). By ceasing on the Sabbath from one's labor after the similitude of God (4:10), the believer makes himself available to receive by grace and not by works the foretaste of the blessings of the final redemption which, through Christ, have already become a certainty (4:7). This positive interpretation of the Sabbath indicates that the primtive Church understood Jesus' Messianic pronouncements (Mark 2:28; Matt. 12:6; John 5:17) and His healing activities, not as the supersession of the Sabbath by a new day of worship, but as the true revelation of the meaning of it's observance: a time to experience God's salvation accomplished through Jesus Christ.'

"From Sabbath to Sunday" by Samuele Bacchiocchi The Pontifical Gregorian University Press, Rome 1977 pgs 72 - 73

I suggest everyone seek a copy of this Doctoral Thesis and study it well..especially Seventh Day Adventists. It is a concise and exhaustive study of the New Testament, early Church writings, the Apologists, the Church Fathers and Historical evidences concerning Christian Sabbath Observance and the rise of Sunday observance in the Churches within the Roman Empire. It also deals with the theological positions and origins of these view points in Church history. This work is the best on the subject, and is not a 7th Day Adventist propagandist tract. It is sound and recognized scholarship. The Pontifical Gregorian University granted Mr. Bacchiocchi a Doctorate because of this work. He is the first not Roman Catholic to be granted such a Doctorate, and he is a Sabbath observant Christian to boot.

In Messiah.
+Kenat'el

[Guest]

"Sabbath observance (GK: sabbatismos) remains in effect for the People of God." Hebrews 4:6 My Literal Translation (2005)
"It is therefore the duty of the People of God to keep the Sabbath." Hebrews 4:6 English translation of the Aramaic New Testament (1940)

You never addressed Steve Gregg's comments regarding this, though. I don't see any refutation for what he said. You've disagreed with them but you haven't answered them.

It is so easy to say that since the New Testament does not restate it in the Gospels, it must not be in effect. Well that is the Liberal approach regarding human sexuality. Christ never restated the prohibition against homosexuality, hence it also must be nullified in the New Covenant right? Nonsense.

What is the New Covenant, though? Why was it necessary?

It was necessary, as Galatians says, because having the Law written on tablets of stone wasn't enough to ensure that people wouldn't transgress. We also read that "the Law was added because of transgressions." Added to what? How could there be transgressions in the absence of the Mosaic Law?

The answer is that before the Mosaic Law was enacted, there were still clear standards to live by. The Mosaic Law was added to those standards because the Israelites simply weren't able to follow them!

The New Covenant is a regression back to the Abrahamic covenant of faith. That's what Galatians' point is. Yes, the Sabbath is still valuable as a teaching tool, and I do agree that in the Kingdom of God, it will be kept by everyone. But the Abrahamic covenant of faith never legislated Sabbath-keeping, although the Sabbath was certainly around back then. And yes, homosexuality was likewise never legislated against, although it was likewise around.

What's the difference? The difference is in how one defines 'sin.' Sin is simply whatever damages relationships, whether our relationship with ourselves, our relationships with one another, or our relationship with God. Before the Mosaic Law came, homosexuality did damage relationships. For brevity's sake, I won't go into the details how and why right now, because there are counseling groups that can do so much better than I can.

It seems illogical that followers of the Sabbath Lord, who is the Messiah of Israel, would have such an aversion to observance to the fourth commandment. The artificial claim that Israel and the Church are two separate entities under two separate Covenants is so very Marcionite and is shocking.

You're attacking a straw man. Number one, I am a Sabbath keeper. Number two, I don't separate Israel and the Church. They're one and the same! The people of God have been and always will be the people of God. It's not up to us to dictate how God has to deal with them, though, and that's what I perceive you as doing.

[snip]

I'm snipping the arguments you've made in favor of Sabbath-keeping until such time as you address how Steve Gregg dealt with them.

Lets look at the Book of Acts and see what the Church practice was concerning the Sabbath.

Yes, let's! Here's Acts 15:10:

"Therefore, why do you put God to the test, to put a yoke upon the neck of the [Gentile] disciples which neither our forefathers nor we were able to bear?"

What was Paul talking about? About "keeping the Law of Moses" (verse 5). And why did Paul say that his own forefathers weren't able to bear it? Because they still sinned! The Law had never saved them from sinning!

Is the Law "holy, just, and good"? (Rom. 7:12) Yes! But it cannot save. And Paul was very clearly talking about NOT forcing the Gentiles to keep the Law of Moses, including Sabbath observance. Nevertheless, he and many others kept the Law - and why? For the twofold purpose of not offending the Jews and also of teaching and instructing the Gentiles. That's why Paul concluded this section in Acts 15 with "For since ancient times, Moses has had those who preach him in every city, since he is read in the synagogues every Sabbath day." In other words, the Gentiles could come and hear about the Law of Moses and what it could teach them in the synagogues on the Sabbath day.

Paul even stated,"Let no one therefore create a disturbance among you about eating or drinking, or about the division of the feast days, the beginning of the months and the day of the Sabbath. These are shadows of things to come; but the whole objective is Messiah." Col. 2:16-17 English translation of the Aramaic Peshitta N.T. (1940)

Right. So why are you creating a disturbance about it?

Paul does not say that we are to reject these things, but that we are not to allow anyone to create a disturbance about them, nor should we allow anyone to criticize us concerning them as Messiah and His Kingdom are the reason for them all, and they foreshadow the Eternal State which is yet to come.

Quite correct, no matter which side of the divide one falls on! But that doesn't change what I've said.

It can be shown that Sabbath Observance has been part and parcel of Christianity since Messiah's time on earth. Just because it has been suppressed by the Churches under Roman Dominion and their offshoots the Protestants, does not mean it is unbiblical or pointless.

Yes, I know. If you'd like, you can do some research on Sabbath-keeping in the ancient Celtic Church. Many of them were indeed Sabbath keepers.

Either we observe all 10 of God's Commandments, or we observe none.

That's being legalistic. I'm sorry, but I don't think you really get it. We're not bound under the Mosaic Law as the Israelites were. There's no threat of stoning or some other strict form of punishment if we break one little part of the Law. Why not? Because it was never God's ultimate intent to force people to obey Him. God desired obedience out of love and with faith! The whole point and purpose of the Law is to direct us to Christ. It's not an end in itself, which is what you seem to be making it out to be, whether you can see it or not. You need to see the Sabbath as a means to a goal, not the goal itself. If you can do that, then you'll begin to understand what God is really doing.

Yes, Love fulfills the Law...but John told us what Love is: keeping the Commandments of God. The first four Commandments define the Love for God, and the last 6 Commands define the Love for our Neighbor. Do we nullify the Law? God Forbid! We affirm the Law in our Lives!

Here's a question for you, then. Why did God command certain people to deliberately break the Law?

Look at Hosea 1-2. God commanded Hosea to marry a whore. When she committed adultery on him and he knew it, why did he not stone her to death according to Deuteronomy 22:22?

Look at Ezekiel 4:9-17. God commanded Ezekiel to make bread with dung! Whether you want to interpret this as an ingredient in the bread or as fuel for the cooking fire, the point is still that the bread was polluted and unclean. Ezekiel even said so! So why did God have him do it?

I don't think you really get it. When one is led by the Spirit of love, one is not bound by the Law. What that basically means is that in this life, sometimes we'll find occasion to go against the letter of the Law for a higher purpose, as Hosea and Ezekiel did. In the Kingdom, love and the Law will be in complete and total alignment, but such is not the case right now.

There is One Church of God, and She was established at Sinai on Pentacost 1450 B.C. She broke Her first Covenant with God Her Bridegroom and was estranged from Him. But as He promised, He engaged Her again in a New and Better Covenant and wrote His Decalogue on Her Heart at Pentacost 30 A.D.

The term "royal law" refers to just what James said it refers to. "Love your neighbor as yourself." The reason why it's the ROYAL law is because it's the law of the Kingdom of heaven! Since there's no marriage in heaven, do the angels have to worry about committing adultery? No. Since there's no death in heaven, do the angels have to worry about not murdering? Again, no. So the ROYAL law is basically the law of love. When God establishes His Kingdom on earth as well as in heaven (Mat. 6:10), the same Law will be in effect over everyone in God's family (Eph. 3:14-15; Rev. 19:10; 1 Cor. 15:24-28 ).

Contrary to Steve, God has not changed his modus operendi, nor is He a Divorcee like Myself and Steve.

You've got to be kidding me! Look at Isaiah 50:1! God divorced Israel and widowed Judah. (Judah is symbolized by the widow who casts in her last two mites into the Temple treasury in Luke 21:1-4. The two mites represent the two witnesses who preach in Jerusalem.)

I love Steve as a Brother though we differ in perspectives on many issues. But anyone who says Sabbath Observance marks you out for Salvation while Sunday Observance marks you out as a follower of the Beast is heretical.

I agree with what you just said, but I don't think even you realize the ramifications of it. Read Romans 2:14-15. The Gentiles which are doing by nature the things in the Law - such as honoring one's parents, not stealing, etc., are doing those things not because they're being commanded to, but because they're coming from love! Gentiles like that would be able to stand up in judgment of Lawkeepers, and would be accorded greater mercy and standing in the Kingdom. (Mat. 10:14-15; 12:41)

Damon

[Guest]

"From Sabbath to Sunday" by Samuele Bacchiocchi The Pontifical Gregorian University Press, Rome 1977 pgs 72 - 73

I've actually never read the book itself, although I've seen excerpts from it and have done a lot of research into early Christian beliefs and practices - including Sabbath-keeping - myself.

Damon

[Guest]

What would a sabbath keeping Doctor/nurse do on sabbath hours
not work? Leave it to someone else to work weekends or simply
not accept a paycheck, Its right to do good on the sabbath, correct?
I cannot understand after reading Galatians how my friend could feel
we MUST keep Saturday....
Thank you for your comments.