The Old Testament & Today

Right & Wrong
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Post by __id_2533 » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:53 pm

This is a good one Homer!
Seems to me God hid Moses' body for a reason but men keep trying to dig him up.
I'll try to briefly answer your questions.

It is interesting that the Physical sword was used to kill the three thousand, but in the "New" the sword of the spirit was used to "kill" the flesh of the ones being saved.

We know that the Law is spiritual, but men of the flesh, or carnal minds could not submit to it.

Indeed, without the Life of the Spirit, it is evident that the veil still remains on those who try to read the "Law" OF God as revealed through Moses, but when they do receive the Spirit of Christ the veil is lifted and the glory of the Law and of His Word is seen!

I know that i can cannot, at this time give you complete, or well thought out answers to your good comments, but I will try, possibly next week, Lord willing.

peace, dmatic
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_Allyn
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Post by _Allyn » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:22 pm

What Sabbath? Is there even a Sabbath to observe?
I suppose for those who believe there is, then these other questions are bound to come up. However if no such requirement exists, then the other questions are moot.

If there is a Sabbath we are obligated to observe, then the Torah is where it is established, and Saturday would be the day. But when you go there to find the rule, you will discover you cannot follow what is said, because no temple exists, nor any Levites to direct it. Not only that but we do not mark time by the Jewish method anymore. Even the Jews don't follow the 6pm-6pm marker - except of course for Sabbath.

Something is therefore definitely amiss if God expects this of us. So instead of looking in the Torah, we need to find what the NT teaching for us is. There we find the things that have already been mentioned: Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath and our rest is found in Him, not in the observance of a particular day of the week, but in every day.

In the Book of Hebrews we have important information relative to this Sabbath rest in the dispensation of the New Covenant.


Heb. 3:7-15 -- So, as the Holy Spirit says: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts as you did in the rebellion, during the time of testing in the desert, where your fathers tested and tried me and for 40 years saw what I did. This is why I was angry with that generation, and I said, "their hearts are always gone astray, and they have not known my ways." So I declared on oath in my anger, "They shall never enter my rest."
See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sins deceitfulness.
According to the words here by the Holy Spirit these unbelieving Israelites, during their wandering in the wilderness, would never enter God's rest because of their rebellion and unbelief. This can't be speaking of the weekly Sabbath rest as demanded of the shadow as they entered into that faithfully every Sabbath day. This is the Holy Spirit speaking to us who are living in the dispensation of the New Covenant. This couldn't be speaking to those of previous ages because only at the cross of Christ did the law with all its regulations including the Sabbath reach its fulfillment.

Here we are encouraged into God's rest, which is as was the rest that Adam and Eve entered following creation; a spiritual rest every day. It is "that rest" which gives us peace with God in the knowledge that our redemption through Christ was completed at the cross. We are to encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sins deceitfulness.


Heb. 4:1-11 -- Therefore, since the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us be careful that none of you be found to have fallen short of it. For we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did [speaking of the Jews hearing the gospel from Jesus]; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. [They refused to accept Christ as the Messiah.]
Now we who have believed enter into that rest, just as God has said, "So I declared in my anger 'They shall never enter my rest.' "
Just as the Israelites who had been redeemed from slavery in Egypt, and their descendants, were entitled to the physical rest of the weekly Sabbath, so that spiritual rest (God's rest) is limited to all who believe on Christ and have had their sins cleansed by the blood of Christ on the cross. They have been redeemed from the world and set apart and enter into God's rest. This rest is peace with God in the assurance of eternal life through Christ.


Heb. 4 (Cont'd) -- And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world. For somewhere he has spoken about the seventh-day in these words: "And on the seventh-day God rested from all his work." And again in the passage above he says, "They shall never enter my rest."
It still remains that some will enter that rest, and those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of unbelief.
This has to be those unbelieving Jews at the time of Christ because the gospel was first presented by Jesus at that time. They were keeping "the rest" of the Shadow on every Sabbath day, but they did not enter into God's rest as presented in the new covenant due to their unbelief. He is just as surely speaking of those at the present time who, blending good works, obedience to the law, Sabbath keeping, etc. to assist in assuring their salvation, fall into this same classification and cannot enter into this rest.

Heb. 4 (Cont'd) -- Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today, when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts."
Therefore God again set a certain day. What day had he previously set? It could only be the Sabbath. Which day was the day referred to as "God again set a certain day"? This according to the text above, can only be Today. This was the perfect opportunity for God to specify if another day had been solemnized to become a different Sabbath day. This He didn't do because the original Sabbath was a shadow of Christ and when He replaced the Sabbath at the cross, that day had served its purpose and now all our attention is to be returned to Christ instead of to any particular day.

The day we choose to come together to worship Him on a regular basis is left to the church to decide, but their decision, even though agreeable to the Lord, does not make it into a holy day. All the holiness of that day was transferred to Christ and none of it to be shared by another day. The day He chose was Today and everyday as long as it is called today.

What you choose to do on Saturday or Sunday in worship of the Lord is therefore not based upon the day, but that the heart desires to worship the One who is worthy. Something we can do everyday as well and that is what pleases Him.

the temple was required for Sabbath observance as the Levites performed double duty on that day. This is how we can see that the Sabbath was part of the ceremonial law that has been done away with as well. A change in priesthood brought a change in law.

What Sabbath keepers want to do is turn a spiritual truth back into a carnal observance as if that picture can properly represent the spiritual rest we have in Christ now, yet still thru our flesh. And how do they prepare for it? By gathering double portions of "manna" and preparing it on the day before, observing all the law requires except for the sacrifices.

Manna ceased to exist when Israel entered into the promise land, because God provided abundantly. Manna was a picture of the Bread of Life to come. The Israelites who were delivered from Egypt refused to enter the land even after evidence was given them of God's bounty there, and they also despised the manna they were given. Yet Sabbath keepers want to follow their lead!

We are not to try and bring life back to what God has declared dead, nul and void. During the 1st century when the temple was still standing the Jewish method of reckoning time was also still practiced. But Roman time has replaced Jewish time in all the world and the temple is now gone too. Makes you wonder how dead something has to be before they are willing to admit that death has in fact come to what was then dying.

I see them trying to keep their rituals alive via a respirator - I suppose to prevent the stink which would definitely tell them that what is in fact without life, is dead. And this they do to perfect "holiness".

http://www.endtimesmadness.com/SabbathRest.html
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Post by __id_2533 » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:32 pm

Allyn, your's is a long post, and I'm not sure how to operate these quote thingies, but I'll try to answer some of what you seem to be trying to teach.

You wrote:
but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith. [They refused to accept Christ as the Messiah.]
Actually, they refused to hear God's voice when He was speaking the Law to them, and we all know that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. When they refused to hear, and instead, sent Moses to hear for them and promised to obey what he told them God had said, we see that they didn't follow through with their promise! When we refuse to listen to His Laws, even our prayers are an abomination and, of course, we won't have the faith to endure.

Peace, dmatic
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Post by __id_2533 » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:36 pm

Allyn, earlier you had asked:
What Sabbath? Is there even a Sabbath to observe?
God's Sabbath. And Yes, there are many Sabbath days that God instructs us to keep. I try to keep the seventh day sabbath, and I believe it begins at sundown of the sixth day.

But, there are other sabbaths that we should keep too, according to His instructions in His Law.

peace, dmatic
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Post by __id_2533 » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:38 pm

Allyn, how do you reconcile this statement:
And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world.
with Jesus' statement that His Father is working and even now works...? (sorry, but I don't know the address)
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Post by __id_2533 » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:44 pm

Allyn, I just finished reading your post, and I'm a bit dismayed by the attitude portrayed by this closing paragraph:
I see them trying to keep their rituals alive via a respirator - I suppose to prevent the stink which would definitely tell them that what is in fact without life, is dead. And this they do to perfect "holiness".
Dismayed, because I don't understand it. Do you believe that God's commandments as given through his servant Moses, and upheld by His Son have passed away, or have died? If so, are you not in violation of Jesus' command Not to think that? (Matthew 5:17)

Peace, dmatic
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Post by _Allyn » Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:52 pm

Is this what you would call straining out the gnat? Please let the article speak for itself and try not to dismiss it all because of one paragraph that may offend you.
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_roblaine
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Post by _roblaine » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:14 pm

Hi dmatic,
Dismayed, because I don't understand it. Do you believe that God's commandments as given through his servant Moses, and upheld by His Son have passed away, or have died? If so, are you not in violation of Jesus' command Not to think that? (Matthew 5:17)
Hi dmatic,
Your mention of Matthew 5:17 is interesting, and incomplete. If you continue to read through verse 20, Jesus goes on to explain this further.

Matthew 5:17-20
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus said that He came to fulfill the law and the prophets, and not one jot or tittle will pass away until all is fulfilled. Can you think of anything Jesus left unfulfilled?

John 19:28-30
28 After this, Jesus, knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, said, "I thirst!" 29 Now a vessel full of sour wine was sitting there; and they filled a sponge with sour wine, put it on hyssop, and put it to His mouth. 30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

So rather than seeing this verse as a confirmation that Jesus still expects us to keep the Sabbath, I see Jesus telling us that He came to fulfill the law and prophets, and when completed, old law would pass away and be replaced with something greater. Taking part in this New Covenant is how our righteousness will exceed that of the Scibes and Pharisees.

Robin
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_Allyn
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Post by _Allyn » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:27 pm

Robin, my response back to dmatic was fague and incomplete (on purpose though) but yours was well said and complete. You left no ambiquity and that is how we should respond whenever led.

Thank you much
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Post by _roblaine » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:36 pm

Allyn wrote:Robin, my response back to dmatic was fague and incomplete (on purpose though) but yours was well said and complete. You left no ambiquity and that is how we should respond whenever led.

Thank you much
Actually Allyn, I thought your original post was a very good layout of my own position. I don't think I could have said it better myself.

God bless,
Robin
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