Jesus' Example Of Lobbying Against Gays

[Guest]

Hi TK, thanks for the raising the question

I don’t think it should be a secret that the scripture teaches the sinfulness of homosexual behaviour. I also think the general approach that many Christians have taken is wrong. It treats certain people like they have the cooties or something. A special kind of sinner. Of course, anyone who teaches that homosexuality is sin immediately runs the risk of being clumped in with people who take, what I would deem, the wrong approach. This does not negate our responsibility to state what the scriptures teach. For example, just because TV preachers use carnal means to pressure people into giving money does not negate our responsibility in teaching the need to give to the needy and the work of the gospel.

That being said, it is also important to note that Jesus was very approachable and did not, as Greg Boyd states, pick on any certain category of sinners. He was open to all.

We also see Jesus being very direct at times. Speaking right into people’s lives exactly what they needed to hear. This can sometimes be used as a license to use unbridled language when talking about and to homosexuals. Much like the “bad apple” TV preacher example, we can’t let this stop us from truly being led by God to speak truth into someone’s life.

Most importantly, I think we must remember that God alone can truly convict of sin, regardless of what it is. We can protest, yell, name call, preach etc… but God alone is the one who convicts and calls them by name. It also seems we can lose the perspective that individuals who are involved in homosexuality are real people, with real sin issues (just like all of us), whom Jesus really died for.


PS….If I was a homosexual and had people lobbying and protesting against me, I’d want to fight back as well….and certainly wouldn’t feel welcome at a Sunday morning service!

[Guest]

Steve- I agree with every thing you said.

I think you hit the nail on the head-- as soon as we (even as humbly and as nicely as possible) suggest that homosexual behavior is a sin, we run the risk of alienating people.

We are in a unique situation today because there is such a strong gay lobby whose (seeming) sole purpose is to brand every dissenter (from the idea that "its okay to be gay") as intolerant, unenlightened neanderthals.

I agree that homosexuality is just a sin, like many other sins that beset us. Love requires that we tell them this fact. The question is whether a practicing (unrepentant) homosexual can be part of the kingdom. I would think not, although I am not 100% certain about this. 99.9% maybe

So, surely we should deal with homosexuals as Christ would. My initial question was how we are to do this. When Jesus confronted the woman caught in adultery, he told her that he was not condemning her, and to go and sin no more. The last part is where it gets dicey in dealing with homosexuals. For as soon as we tell them to "sin no more" we will be branded as intolerant and judgmental, especially because homosexuals have been so brainwashed(?) by the activist agenda into accepting their own persuasion, and to do so proudly.

I guess what I am saying is that AT SOME POINT a homosexual must be confronted with the truth of his/her condition. How or when, I am not sure.

TK

[_Rick_C]

TK, Steve, Michelle (and all),

I can't post much today, started a new job & got busy.

As I posted above, Greg Boyd doesn't seem to have a clue what life was like in first century Palestine; how society was set up and run (with all of his theological training?). He also doesn't appear to understand the significance of the very real differences between theocracy and democracy (actually, a republic in the USA's case). Boyd warns about "satire" in the article. But what I see is plain old sarcasm...targeting: other Christians. I could go point by point from his article and comment, but there's so much in it that's out of whack -- it would take a while, lol. Anyway, I better to go to bed, thanks.

[Guest]

As I posted above, Greg Boyd doesn't seem to have a clue what life was like in first century Palestine

Hi Rick,

Could you point out the part of the story that exposes this to you?

[_Rick_C]

Hello Derek,

I don't want to get into a debate about all of this but will answer your question.

Now, followers of Jesus are called to imitate Jesus, as I recall (Eph 5:1-2). In this light, taking this public stance makes sense, doesn't it? I mean, Jesus does this sort of thing a lot in the Gospels, doesn't he? Passing laws not only against gays and prostitutes and tax collectors, but against protecting these sorts of people. Surely this sort of religious-political behavior is all over the place in the Gospels, isn't it?

Only the first sentence "makes sense" to me.

To answer them in order:

Yes, we are called to imitate Christ (makes sense).

The "stance" Boyd talks about are based in the very real fears of his fellow believers (in this century); their fears are legitimate, imo.

Jesus couldn't have "lobbied" to change or initiate Laws (legislate) in the ways we can and do in this century -- even if he had been a normal person (regular citizen). They just didn't go about doing these things like we do back then.

In the first century there already WERE laws against homosexuals, prostitutes, and tax collectors (thieves).

The Gospels have no trace of 21st century American legislation.

What I and every Christian agrees with Boyd on:

This past weekend in the Saturday paper I found a lovely article that reports that both the House and the Senate approved a bill that would make violence against gays simply because of their sexual orientation a "hate crime." This bill, if it became law, would put anti-gay violence on the same level as religious or race motivated violence. Punishment for official "hate crimes" tends to be more severe than for just random acts of violence. So, the law would help protect gays.

What true Christian could be against this? It is the current political climate that causes concern among the Evanglicals mentioned: "Slippery Slope"....Boyd seems aloof, at best, to this.

Not surprisingly, the newspaper article said that George Bush is receiving PRESSURE FROM EVANGELICALS to VETO the bill. Some Evangelicals are apparently afraid that the passing of this bill is a step in the direction of making it a punishable crime to refer to homosexuality as a sin. And, of course, we need to protect our rights.

Greg Boyd apparently has nothing to say about the Evangelicals who have these very real concerns...other than consecending intellectual sarcasm.

The "our rights" mentioned above are about what we want our society to be like. And in our political process and society (which is nothing at all like in Jesus's day) we may have reasons to oppose some laws -- though they may be good in and of themselves. The Evangelicals mentioned are concerned about the fast moving trend toward the Left, which is their reason to oppose the legislation (Bill H.R. 1592); not because they condone violence: against anyone.

At any rate, Derek, I've been in many (many) discussions/debates about similar stuff at Beliefnet (exact same things, really). Greg Boyd is on the "Evangelical Left". I'm more of a "fundy" on this issue and, well, that's really about all I should probably say. Folks will continue to think people like me and "some Evangelicals" (above) are paranoid morons, lol...I can't change that.

[Guest]

You really should read his book, "The Myth of A Christian Nation", which is influenced by (another book I'd recommend) "The Politics of Jesus" by Howard Yoder (a guy that is far from ignorant of 1rst century culture). I think that you'll be suprised by both of them. I can assure you that neither of these guys think that the government in Jesus' day was the same as ours!

I don't want to debate it either. Just thought I'd recommend them.

God bless brother!

[_Rick_C]

Before I have to git to bed, Derek,

I don't believe this country is a "Christian nation" any more than I believe in the man in the moon, lol. Yes, there is probably a lot I would agree with with these two guys...maybe more than I know....

Okay, I'll see if the library or Christian bookstore has them in stock, Thanks Bro

[Guest]

the slippery slope rick c referenced is real-- look where the slippery slope has led our nation over the past 50 years.

now, it is very nice to suggest that "if christians would just act like christ" we wouldnt be in this mess. I agree. But they dont, and we are.

I agree that no one should do anything toward gays that would be perceived as a hate crime (e.g., beat them up). but the gay agenda is not to stop at beatings; the agenda is to move into the realm of SPEECH, which would or could cripple many ministries/church's ability to speak to these issues.

so, we have the choice of saying "we shouldnt worry about what the legislature does because Jesus wasnt a political lobbyist" or we can support candidates who are concerned with the issue. Christians(for the most part) arent the ones trying to get these laws passed. So it would seem that if the laws are not good, or could create slippery slopes, then we have a right (responsibility?) to see that they are not passed. Burying our heads in the sand does not seem to be an appropriate response.

I enjoy good satire; however I wish Greg B would give some ideas of what we should do as a practical matter. What will he say when laws are passed that state it is a "hate crime" to preach (or say) that homosexuality is a sin? Dont think it can happen? dont be so sure!

TK

[Guest]

TK, I can't speak for Greg Boyd but, knowing him, he'd probably ask how often we pray about such things. The question is somewhat rhetorical in nature since most Christians have a rather lukewarn view of prayer... sort of a spiritual last resort if our politics fail. Boyd greatly esteems prayer as a means of changing things. If we couple fervent prayer with ridiculous love for all people, we become what the church was meant to be. Yes, many people will still hate us because we don't tell them it's ok to use sex in any way that feels good to them.

Love doesn't mean placating the masses, but aligning our beliefs with a political party is suicide, in my opinion. When people in this country hear the word "Christian" they immediately think "right-wing politics." How did we ever let this happen? Didn't Paul say he's not the judge of those outside the church? Let's clean up our own mess first.

[Guest]

jc wrote:

If we couple fervent prayer with ridiculous love for all people, we become what the church was meant to be.

i certainly agree with you there.

as far as christians being associated with right wing politics, it only makes sense. the liberal side of many of the main issues are decidely non-christian. christians, unfortunately, will never escape this moniker, as long as they are anti-abortion, etc.

TK