Abortion - Should There Ever Be Exceptions?

[Guest]

So lying is out, but you can mislead people as long as you are clever about the wording so it can be technically true?

It's not an important point, but I don't think Ananias and Sapphira lied to save their lives, although that certainly would have been ironic if they had.

[Guest]

So lying is out, but you can mislead people as long as you are clever about the wording so it can be technically true?

Well, I’ll say this much: it’s a lot better than actually sinning. And I’m sure we would all agree that the intent is not to deceive. Satan is a deceiver. That, of course, is not our objective. The intent is to obey God. And if that obedience causes us speak the truth, even if it means death or confusion or offending someone, then so be it.

The first sin mentioned in the Bible is a lie. The last sin mentioned in the Bible is a lie. Funny things are how words appear in the Bible.

But at any rate, Ananias and Sapphira lied for a reason. Although the reason isn’t certain, it was selfish enough and heinous enough to be judged publicly by God.

[Guest]

Loaves,

In your reply, perhaps unaware, you have taken a hierarchical position. You admit that children must obey their parents and that we must obey the government. To fail to do so is sin. Than you assert that we must obey God when His other commands conflict with the first. Why? Because they are higher in priority. Why is it so difficult to see that the command to "love your neighbor as yourself", might take priority over truth telling when the neighbor"s life is at stake?

Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself. And He added "there is no greater commandment than these. Did He not arrange them hierarchically? Do you believe somehow you would show more love for God by telling the truth when doing so would cost your neighbor's life?

[Guest]

Loaves, what do you think is the meaning of "lying"?

Does it mean simply "uttering a false statement"?

If so, if you make a statement that you believe to be true, but is in fact false, have you lied? Have you committed a sin?

Look in any dictionary, and you will find out what "lie" means.
Here is an example from one dictionary:


lie2 (li)n.
1. A false statement deliberately presented as being true; a falsehood.
2. Something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression

---------------------------------------------------------
Excerpted from American Heritage Talking Dictionary
Copyright © 1997 The Learning Company, Inc. All Rights Reserved.

Notice first of all that a false statement must be "deliberately presented" to qualify as a lie.

Secondly notice that "something meant to deceive or give a wrong impression" qualifies as a lie.

In the case of Menno Simons, the "something" was his statement, "No. Menno Simons is not down there." Though the statement was literally true, it was meant to deceive, to give the impression that Mennos Simons was not on the coach. A LIE!

In the case of Rahab, there were two "somethings". The first was her statement that "she did not know where the spies came from", whereas a reading of the context shows that she knew very well that they were Israelites, and that the Israelites were planning to take over the land.

The second was her statement, "The men went out. I do not know where they went." This statement was meant to deceive, to give the impression that the spies had gone from her house and were no longer there. Even if you are right in your assumption that the statement was technically true, it was a lie, since it was meant to deceive.

As for Richard Wurmbrand, is he disqualified in your eyes as a true disciple just because he happened to be a Lutheran minister? That fact does not imply that he was similar to Luther in his moral stance.

[Guest]

Loaves, what do you think is the meaning of "lying"?

Well, whenever I can, I get my definitions from the mouth of God. “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.” And so, I agree with you that lying is this false representation of the truth.

… if you make a statement that you believe to be true, but is in fact false, have you lied? Have you committed a sin?

I would say it depends on the individual circumstances. I would need more parameters.

In the case of Menno Simons, the "something" was his statement, "No. Menno Simons is not down there." Though the statement was literally true, it was meant to deceive, to give the impression that Mennos Simons was not on the coach. A LIE!

Yes the statement was true, but was it meant to deceive? You would have to ask old Menno about that … I do not know his intentions. But, yes, it is probable that he meant to deceive.

[Paidion was speaking of Rahab]
The first was her statement that "she did not know where the spies came from", whereas a reading of the context shows that she knew very well that they were Israelites, and that the Israelites were planning to take over the land.

Was her intent to deceive? Possibly, we don’t know. Was her statement true? Yes. She knew they were Israelites, but did she know they were from a certain locality? Maybe. Maybe not.

As for Richard Wurmbrand, is he disqualified in your eyes as a true disciple just because he happened to be a Lutheran minister? That fact does not imply that he was similar to Luther in his moral stance.

No, he is not disqualified simply because he was a Lutheran. Forgive me if I gave that impression. But because of the mere fact he is a “Lutheran,” the name “Martin Luther” bears some weight concerning his theology. Luther condoned sin and I wouldn’t be surprised if another Lutheran believed the same thing—and he did. If I understand correctly, Wurmbrand “confessed to any false charges concerning himself -- adultery, homosexuality…” (http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=22106). If he did that, I fear that he is wrong, dead wrong. Confessing something he didn’t even do? That just can’t be right … but I can’t judge the man.

In all these cases of people, I realize that people slip up and sin. But should we compare ourselves to these saints? They were just people. And people sin all the time. Shouldn’t we compare ourselves to Jesus? What did He preach?

Yeah, Homer I see your point. I am always willing to admit that I may have been wrong.

But let me say this: Jesus taught His disciples to “observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you” (Matt. 28:20). I don’t think He said to “observe all things” hierarchically, but I know Paidion will inform us about the Greek and Hebrew. I always learn something from his language lessons.

Jesus said that the greatest commandment is to love God. The next is to love your neighbor. But, I never see Jesus giving exceptions or endorsements for sin.

I believe that in order to “observe all things” we need to observe them concurrently. When we are told by God to love our neighbors, are we <b><i>really</i></b> loving them by sinning to save their life?

So, we need to love and obey God first and foremost. What does He have to say? I think we all agree on that. If God commands us to do one thing and our parents command us to do something entirely contrary to God’s will, it is not sin if we disobey them. God’s covenants with man are always conditional. Our obedience to parents is conditional. “Disobedience” can sometimes be sin and sometimes not. <b><i>But not all sin is like that</i></b>

Do you believe somehow you would show more love for God by telling the truth when doing so would cost your neighbor's life

“He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me” (Matthew 10)

Well, Homer, I would say yes and no depending on the situation. Could you give me more specifics on a detailed scenario? For example:

Suppose I am in the woods walking with my wife and children (why I walking in the woods I have no idea). I point out a rock formation of in the distance about a mile. She and the children go while I stay to see if I can tame a moose, with hopes that I can ride him one day and possible pull my plough. But anyway, this guy looking like he came from a West Virginian junkyard comes up and pulls a pen-knife on me.

Through a toothless mouth, he says in distorted West Virginian English, “Warr bein’ the wommun’ ‘n chilluns’?”

I say, “What if I don’t tell?”

He says, “Haaaa!!!!” and coughs from his sudden outburst and snorts and then continues, “If ya’ doan’ tell mah’, I’ll slit yourn’ thro’”

In my mind I think I made out the jist of what he was trying to say. Now, what do we do at this point? We could 1) Not do anything, keep shut; 2) Squeal on mamma and the “chilluns”; or 3) Tell this guy something totally false and risk sinning in the process.

I will tell you what I would do: keep shut. I would never squeal, and by telling Mr. Junkyard something false, you could risk sinning.

What does God say to do? “observe all things…” “All liars will burn…” “Satan is the father of all liars…” “Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin” “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven”.

And so, I know I may be wrong. I haven’t “arrived.” But let’s just take things case-by-case.

My apologies to those who were misled, and got a false impression about what I believe. I know I’m not perfect, but by God’s grace, I strive to be.

[Guest]

Loaves,

I must compliment you on your zeal for following Jesus and humility.

You said:

Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin” “Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven”.

In John 8:34 "committeth" is a present participle in the Greek which refers to a continuous or repeated action, not a rare case where a choice must be made of which commandment takes priority. I do not see the application of Matthew 5:19 in a situation where you must decide which of two commandments to keep.

Imagine a situation where a family lives in your neighborhood, a man and his wife with small children. The man is known to have a violent temper and abuse his wife when drunk. One night you hear a frantic knock at your door. Upon opening the door, you see the wife, beaten and bloodied, with her children frightened and crying. She begs to come in, and says her husband is in a rage and threatening to kill them all.

You invite her in and take her to a back room to tend her wounds and call the police. Soon you hear a knock on your door. You open the door but it isn't the police - its her husband, drunk and demanding to know if his wife is there. You notice the butt of a gun protruding from his waistband. Would you say it would be a sin to calmly say she isn't at your house, you saw her and the kids go running by and don't know where they went (a la Rahab)?

For an actual case used in a Christian ethics book, see my post under "General/ Personal Questions". Scroll to "A Question for Damon", page 2, posted March 7, 2005.

God bless, Homer

[Guest]

Homer, thank you for a more detailed scenario.

Imagine a situation where a family lives in your neighborhood, a man and his wife with small children. The man is known to have a violent temper and abuse his wife when drunk. One night you hear a frantic knock at your door. Upon opening the door, you see the wife, beaten and bloodied, with her children frightened and crying. She begs to come in, and says her husband is in a rage and threatening to kill them all.

You invite her in and take her to a back room to tend her wounds and call the police. Soon you hear a knock on your door. You open the door but it isn't the police - its her husband, drunk and demanding to know if his wife is there. You notice the butt of a gun protruding from his waistband. Would you say it would be a sin to calmly say she isn't at your house, you saw her and the kids go running by and don't know where they went (a la Rahab)?

Remember our main objective is to serve/love/obey God first. Then our fellow man. We all agree on that.

What I would say to do is to avoid deception as much as we possibly can. To say that she isn’t in the house is deceptive. To twist my words so they are technically truthful wouldn’t be as bad, but it would still be deceptive.

Here is what I would do:

I would look that drunk in the eye and say “She passed by here a couple hours ago, with her children running from that direction [pointing in the direction where she came from], and she was heading in that direction [pointing down the street, where she would have been going if I didn’t invite her in]”

The drunk looks at me with a roving eye caused by his stupor and he grunts. This signifies his satisfaction and he stumbles down the stairwell in his pursuit for his children and wayward wife.

There you have it!! No deception!! Why did I say she “passed by here” a couple hours ago? Was my intention to save the woman’s life? Yes! Was my intent to make to man leave and think she wasn’t in my house? No, he could have stayed to search the house, if he wanted to; he could have killed me if he wanted to. Was I presenting a false witness of the truth? No. But was I saying something deceptive? Was I lying? No, I didn’t lie either. But was I deceiving the drunkard? Well, yes and no. And even if I did deceive the drunkard without the intention of doing so, do you think that deception would be sin? I don’t think so. We probably deceive lots of people unknowingly, throughout the day. But if our intention is not to deceive, would it be sin? That is the question each one of us needs to ask ourselves.

And so I would say that I would try to be the least misleading as possible and avoiding sin at all costs.

And, it’s sort of hard to say exactly what I would do, because I would need a real-life situation. For example, what would be the drunkard’s reaction to my words? I don’t know. Would he just meekly and submissively stumble down the stairwell like my narrative depicted? I don’t know.

I’ll have a look at the real-life scenario you mentioned.

Yours in Jesus,

[Guest]

I personally believe that abortion no matter what is murder even in the cases of rape, etc. The reason I believe this is that the Lord can take a horrible evil such as rape and turn it into a great blessing, that blessing would be a child which could be adopted. I know I have an extreme opinion concerning abortion, but 19 years ago I received a letter from a ex-girlfriend that she had gotten pregnant, I was a the father, she felt like a murderess and she did it to protect my future. It took 18 years of living hell to finally understand my struggles, that like women, men also can suffer from Post Abortion Syndrome a form of post tramatic stress syndrome. I pray everyday abortion will be banned, protecting the child from death and mother & father from an emotional nightmare and a wonding that cuts deep.

Jim

[Guest]

I personally believe that abortion no matter what is murder even in the cases of rape, etc. The reason I believe this is that the Lord can take a horrible evil such as rape and turn it into a great blessing, that blessing would be a child which could be adopted. I know I have an extreme opinion concerning abortion, but 19 years ago I received a letter from a ex-girlfriend that she had gotten pregnant, I was a the father, she felt like a murderess and she did it to protect my future. It took 18 years of living hell to finally understand my struggles, that like women, men also can suffer from Post Abortion Syndrome a form of post tramatic stress syndrome. I pray everyday abortion will be banned, protecting the child from death and mother & father from an emotional nightmare and a wonding that cuts deep.

Jim

Amen, Jim. Amen. What a sobering story of real life. May the hearts of the young people in our countries turn away from this wickedness.

[Guest]

Inocent blood is what is shed when an abortion is done. My wife was raped and a child resulted from that assult. The child is now all grown up and doing great on her own. My wife has been sober since then. sinner.