The Old Testament & Today

[Guest]

dmatic wrote:

I still pray for God's Kingdom to come, and for His will to be done, so it appears to me, that God's Kingdom and His will are not yet "fulfilled" here as in heaven. Do you agree?

This would require a whole new conversation. Perhaps you could start a new thread on the subject of the “Kingdom of Heaven/God”, and we could discuss whether we are still waiting for the kingdom to arrive, or it in our midst now.

Robin

[Guest]

Robin wrote and asked:

dmatic,
You make a good point in saying that "we should walk as He did". Does Jesus strike you as one who is hung up on Sabbath Keeping?


Jesus labored on the Sabbath, and so did his disciples. It is lawful to good on the Sabbath even if it requires that I work or carry a burden. But for a Christians of course, it is only lawful to do good everyday. Why should I cease from doing good on Saturday? Jesus Himself didn't take Saturday off. I fact, I believe Jesus intentionally worked on the Sabbath.

John 5:17-18
17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working." 18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

So we can agree on this, that we should do as Jesus did.

Well, Jesus was concerned with our obedience to His Father's Laws. And He instructed that we keep His sabbath holy! So, you believe that Jesus intentionally broke His father's command? I respectfully disagree.

I also disagree with the version you quoted. Of course, the "Jews" thought that Jesus had broken the Sabbath day command, because they were not teaching it. They were teaching man's version, not God's! Jesus did not break the Sabbath day command as your version wrongly states.

It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath Day.

I think your confusion may come from a misunderstanding of what constitutes "work". God asked that all of us, including animals, refrain from doing the profane, everyday, 'work' required for our "sustenance" and to keep His sabbath day holy. Not doing those things that "please" us, but to do those things that please Him.

Hope this helps.

peace, dmatic

[Guest]

Allyn, If you have already answered this, please accept my apology, but I will ask it again...

Allyn, how do you reconcile this statement:Quote:
And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world.
with Jesus' statement that His Father is working and even now works...? (sorry, but I don't know the address)

Thanks, dmatic

[Guest]

Hi dmatic,

I enjoy reading what you write here. I am immensely curious, so may I ask a couple of questions?

First:

Well, Jesus was concerned with our obedience to His Father's Laws. And He instructed that we keep His sabbath holy! So, you believe that Jesus intentionally broke His father's command? I respectfully disagree.

I also disagree with the version you quoted. Of course, the "Jews" thought that Jesus had broken the Sabbath day command, because they were not teaching it. They were teaching man's version, not God's! Jesus did not break the Sabbath day command as your version wrongly states.

What version do you prefer and what does it say in these verses?

And:

It is lawful to do good on the Sabbath Day.

I think your confusion may come from a misunderstanding of what constitutes "work". God asked that all of us, including animals, refrain from doing the profane, everyday, 'work' required for our "sustenance" and to keep His sabbath day holy. Not doing those things that "please" us, but to do those things that please Him.

Hope this helps.

peace, dmatic

So what do you, dmatic, do on the Sabbath, and what do you refrain from doing?

Thanks in advance for you answers,
Michelle

[Guest]

Allyn, If you have already answered this, please accept my apology, but I will ask it again...

Allyn, how do you reconcile this statement:Quote:
And yet his work has been finished since the creation of the world.
with Jesus' statement that His Father is working and even now works...? (sorry, but I don't know the address)

Thanks, dmatic

Glad to answer but first, how do you reconcile the two seperate uses of the word "work"?

[Guest]

Robin, I think I promised to give you a better post on the passage you brought:

Colossians 2:16-17
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

Sorry, it's taken me so long. I believe this translation, (as with others as well), to be a poor one that has caused many to misunderstand what our beloved Paul was conveying here.

I think he was cautioning the Colossians not to let their former pagan neighbors teach them regarding the Sabbaths, etc. but to let the body of Christ "judge" them, or teach them regarding these things because these things are important! They reveal the reality that is yet to come!

You may notice, that, in the KJV of this passage that the word "is" has been italicized, which means that it has been supplied by the translators and that it was not in the original text. They also transposed the passage so as to convey their bias as to what they thought it meant.

It, in my opinion, can be better understood with this paraphrase: Don't let anyone, other than the body of Christ, teach you regarding the Sabbath days etc. because these things are 'shadows' of what is yet to come. Therefore, they are important.

This was written well after Jesus had ascended into heaven, and yet these things were "yet to come" in the future. Paul is explaining that the Law of God is important, and is prophetic. We dismiss these instructions to our own "demise", in that we won't understand what is happening. this is evident by the many who do not know God's Law and therefore, have been wrong about their many false proclamations of future events and eschatology. Unless we understand God's feasts, etc., it is easy to misunderstand "future" happenings.

You'll note that the writer of the book of Hebrews declares that there yet remains a sabbath rest for the people of God...one that the author advises that we labor to enter into. It still is true! There yet remains a "rest" for us to enter into. We, in my view, do not get closer to that "rest" by disobeying God's instructions to keep His Sabbaths holy.

Peace, dmatic

[Guest]

dmatic,
I'm currently on a business trip an unable to spend much time on here . However, if you insist on imposing your opinion into the scripture by paraphrasing verses yourself in order to make them say something differnt than it does, I'm not sure that we can go on at this point. We must have some commmon ground to start from. If you would tell me what your preffered translation is, that would be helpfull. Personally, I prefer the NKJV and rarley use paraphrased translations, though I may have quoted the NIV earlier in this discussion because its all I had at my office .
Robin

[Guest]

It would be wonderful to have the originals wouldn't it?

Since we don't we try to do the best we can. I am by no means a scholar, and I'm sorry if I've offended you, Robin, by suggesting another reading of Paul's counsel.

If you want tot drop it, 'tis OK with me, but I still would like someone to explain to me how they can obey the command "Not to let any man judge them"....I have some ideas, but would like to hear how you obey it.

Thanks, dmatic

[Guest]

Thank you Michelle....I'll quickly try to answer your good questions. One, you asked:

What version do you prefer and what does it say in these verses?

Well, I'm not a KJV Only person, and I used to think that all the argument over which is the best version was rather prideful (you know, only by pride cometh contention)...And as I said previously, it would be wonderful to have the originals.....But, I use a number of versions to contrast with one another.....and then sometimes I try to look up the word in the Greek or Hebrew...to try to better understand.

The point I was trying to make regarding the accusation against Jesus for violating the Sabbath command, was that the "Pharisees" or scribes...said or thought He was breaking it, but they were mistaken! Obviously, because Jesus never violated the Law! Even though they falsely accused Him of breaking it!!

then you asked:

So what do you, dmatic, do on the Sabbath, and what do you refrain from doing?

Well, first off, I must admit that I am not keeping the Sabbath perfectly, to my shame...but I'm trying, by the grace of God. I don't work at vocational things, that I do otherwise during the week. My wife and I usually have a relaxing day at home, and after some Bible readings we often take a nap.

We raise horses, so I do feed and water them but try to get as much stuff done on the sixth day so as to make it less "choreful" on the seventh. It is wonderful, though, and my wife and I look forward to the sabbath day!

Sometimes we have driven into the city to meet with others of like mind, and fellowship...but most often we just stay home. I do take time to study His Word during that day too.....

Not much time now, but wanted to respond to your questions a bit.

peace, dmatic