God's Law and Man's Law

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JacobMartinMertens
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God's Law and Man's Law

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sat Feb 13, 2016 10:52 pm

I am for God's Law. Here I am proposing Man's Law can be included in the discussion about observing or obeying the law.

We may need to define these. What is God's Law? What is Man's Law?

Is God's Law the Law of Moses? Of course the Law of Moses is God's Law. Is that all there is to God's Law? Is God's Law more than the Law of Moses? Is God's Law ever thought of as different from the Law of Moses? Two things can be discussed. What is God's Law in light of the gospel (for example, in the new covenant, whether Jew or Gentile)? And, what aspects of the Law should be studied or observed?

What is Man's Law? The Law of Moses is not Man's Law. Does Man's Law include any law that man makes (that is in any way not considered the Law of God)? We are to submit to the governing authorities. Does this make Man's Law the Law for the nation in which we live (unless that nation observes God's Law)? Or, is it broader than that (such as all the nations apart from Israel)?

I live in the United States of America, as a citizen, and I love Torah, God's Law, the nation of Israel, the Hebrew Bible (the TaNaKh), and the Christian Bible (as a Christian). I do not believe it would be correct to assume I am a Zionist. I am a former dispensationslist, and I love God's Law. Without it we not only don't know what sin is, we either don't know how to live unless it is possible to live by the Holy Spirit apart from the law and commands (only option is IF THIS IS POSSIBLE) probably specifically relating to the Law of Moses (except for me the jury is still out on this as I love God's Law, the Law of Moses, as it came to the nation of Israel from God and also through the prophet Moses) or we don't have the proper perspective on how we should live and what those things are that God calls good.

For example, people who observe old covenant law or new covenant law (what is new covenant law then if people observe it?) know that we are to love God and love our neighbor. Love for your fellow man is a part of love for God, in that you do not love God if you forsake love for your neighbor or fellow man. My understanding is that this is law and taught by Jesus, within the context of what Jesus taught, (and) Torah, and the rest of the scriptures of both the Hebrew and Christian Bibles.

Do you understand God's love for you?

Do you observe any or no law or laws?
Last edited by JacobMartinMertens on Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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dizerner
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Re: God's Law and Man's Law-

Post by dizerner » Sat Feb 13, 2016 11:33 pm

JacobMartinMertens wrote:Do you observe any or no law or laws?
I observe two laws.

Either: the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus

Or else at times: the law of sin and of death.

Which law I experience depends on whether I'm living under Law as a principle of demand.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

Singalphile
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Re: God's Law and Man's Law-

Post by Singalphile » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:21 am

Hi JacobMartinMertens.

I will answer a couple of your questions:

Q: Do you understand God's love for you?
A: To some extent, I think so, but not perfectly, imo.

Q: Do you observe any or no law or laws?
A: I observe the laws of the land. I observe Jesus' commandments, as commanded by God at the so-called transfiguration, as passed on and taught by His apostles. You could call the latter "laws", if you want.

I have a request for you, based on the several threads you have started that are similar to this one. If you want to and have time, please briefly - in a few sentences - state your overarching question or point of view in these several threads, in practical terms.

Thank you!
... that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's Law and Man's Law-

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:31 am

dizerner wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:Do you observe any or no law or laws?
I observe two laws.

Either: the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus

Or else at times: the law of sin and of death.

Which law I experience depends on whether I'm living under Law as a principle of demand.
I believe you are saying you do observe law.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's Law and Man's Law

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sun Feb 14, 2016 12:55 am

Singalphile wrote:Hi JacobMartinMertens.

I will answer a couple of your questions:

Q: Do you understand God's love for you?
A: To some extent, I think so, but not perfectly, imo.

Q: Do you observe any or no law or laws?
A: I observe the laws of the land. I observe Jesus' commandments, as commanded by God at the so-called transfiguration, as passed on and taught by His apostles. You could call the latter "laws", if you want.

I have a request for you, based on the several threads you have started that are similar to this one. If you want to and have time, please briefly - in a few sentences - state your overarching question or point of view in these several threads, in practical terms.

Thank you!
I am a new covenant believer seeking an understanding of the full breadth of obedience to God.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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dizerner
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Re: God's Law and Man's Law-

Post by dizerner » Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:17 am

JacobMartinMertens wrote:I believe you are saying you do observe law.
Whenever I have the grace, I do, but you have to understand that law is not something we want to be under because it brings a curse. We do by nature the things in the law because we are regenerated (Rom. 2) not because we are under it.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's Law and Man's Law

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:20 am

dizerner wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:I believe you are saying you do observe law.
Whenever I have the grace, I do, but you have to understand that law is not something we want to be under because it brings a curse. We do by nature the things in the law because we are regenerated (Rom. 2) not because we are under it.
I am mistaken perhaps that you are saying that to be under the law brings a curse?

Of course I want to observe the law. God's Law came from God. Man's Law is to be observed because we are to be subject to the governing authorities. Man's Law is derived from God's Law.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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dizerner
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Re: God's Law and Man's Law

Post by dizerner » Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:25 am

JacobMartinMertens wrote:
dizerner wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:I believe you are saying you do observe law.
Whenever I have the grace, I do, but you have to understand that law is not something we want to be under because it brings a curse. We do by nature the things in the law because we are regenerated (Rom. 2) not because we are under it.
I am mistaken perhaps that you are saying that to be under the law brings a curse?

Of course I want to observe the law. God's Law came from God. Man's Law is to be observed because we are to be subject to the governing authorities. Man's Law is derived from God's Law.
The law is a ministry of death and condemnation, because our efforts and works will never please God. SO what the Law does instead is it makes us realize we need a Savior, because when we take it seriously we find out we are in spiritual quicksand! Those moments we don't obey it as we should are not just "overlooked" while the few times we do right don't count as righteousness, because of impure motives. The only time we ever really keep the Law is if it Jesus' resurrection life keeps it through us on the inside, as we "no longer live, but Christ lives in us." See, this is Christ forming in us, because God wants that perfect righteousness which we never fulfill. The law manifests sin and shows transgressions, and to be under it is to be cursed! Because when we are under the law as a governing principle or rule of life or demand for righteousness, we are cut off from Christ and outside of his Cross-work and not drawing life from the vine (because apart from him we can do nothing). So it ends up we fulfill the law WHEN we are not under the law, and we when we are UNDER the law we don't fulfill it. That's the paradox of the freedom of grace.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

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JacobMartinMertens
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Re: God's Law and Man's Law

Post by JacobMartinMertens » Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:35 am

dizerner wrote:
JacobMartinMertens wrote:
dizerner wrote: The law is a ministry of death and condemnation, because our efforts and works will never please God. SO what the Law does instead is it makes us realize we need a Savior, because when we take it seriously we find out we are in spiritual quicksand! Those moments we don't obey it as we should are not just "overlooked" while the few times we do right don't count as righteousness, because of impure motives. The only time we ever really keep the Law is if it Jesus' resurrection life keeps it through us on the inside, as we "no longer live, but Christ lives in us." See, this is Christ forming in us, because God wants that perfect righteousness which we never fulfill. The law manifests sin and shows transgressions, and to be under it is to be cursed! Because when we are under the law as a governing principle or rule of life or demand for righteousness, we are cut off from Christ and outside of his Cross-work and not drawing life from the vine (because apart from him we can do nothing). So it ends up we fulfill the law WHEN we are not under the law, and we when we are UNDER the law we don't fulfill it. That's the paradox of the freedom of grace.
I can be so bold to say that I think you don't understand what it means to be under the Law and what it means to observe or obey it, even by the Spirit of God.
John 1:41, 49 NASB - 41 He found first his own brother Simon and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which translated means Christ). 49 - Nathanael answered Him, "Rabbi, You are the Son of God; You are the King of Israel."

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dizerner
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Re: God's Law and Man's Law

Post by dizerner » Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:36 am

I can be so bold to say that I think you don't understand what it means to be under the Law and what it means to observe or obey it, even by the Spirit of God.
I appreciate your honesty, but everything I said is clearly stated in the Bible. It's also been lived out in my life many years. Bless.
~ Classical Arminian Christian Mystic ~

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