Tensions between the Old Testament and Jesus

[Homer]

Dizerner,

You wrote:

When you say it's okay to "try your best and get as close as you can" to obedience to God's Word, you have effectively mixed law and grace so that you can hold on to a form of works righteousness that is partial but you mix some grace in.

I agree with David Lipscomb who long ago stated that he had heard enough about the necessity of doing your best. Lipscomb said no one did their best except Jesus. And Lipscomb, it is said, just retained a minimal amount to live on and gave everything else to the poor. But I still do not quite understand you. Are you saying that it takes no effort on our part to follow Jesus? Paul certainly spoke of effort. I know myself that there are times when I know to do good but my flesh "drags its feet" and by an act of will I do the right thing because Jesus said to. And that is agape, I believe.

Thanks

[jriccitelli]

My very first objection to Paidion on this forum over 3 years ago, was over his allusion to the Law of Christ being opposed to the Law of Moses. I'm sure I stated then that the Law of Christ is simply the fulfillment of the Law of Moses (Law of God). Thus the Law ended, because it was 'fulfilled' in Christ. And we fulfill The Law of God by being in Christ, they are not opposed - Only God Himself could fulfill the requirements of the Law (the whole point of the Law). We as Christians teach and obey the Law - in Christ, not outside of Him. The Only Law the disciples knew or had was the Law in the scriptures, which itself contained the promise of Jesus, the Law and covenant written on our heart. In Christ His Word (Gods Law) is written and living within us.

The Law is Christ: The Word of God, living in us, and us in His Word. His Word (The Law is made flesh in us, as He was the Law made flesh). The Law is Gods Word, and Jesus is Gods Word. That is how John could say:
'By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; 5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: 6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked... (Note that John reminds us that this is the same commandment we always had, the one we had from the beginning 'The Law of God' the Holy scriptures, Moses and all the Prophets...) 7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard' (1 John2 3-7) We keep the Law in Him, in the spirit through faith in Him. This manifests by our control of the flesh outwardly, not obeying its lusts. We know and understand the Law as it is taught to us through Christ personally, to each of us in the Spirit, from the heart. It is not something we Judge others by, it is something we judge ourselves by with Christ as our instructor.

I feel as though to say God merely "changed his mind" is a very poor answer. Jesus is the fullest expression of God that we know (Heb. 1:3). Why is He so apparently different than the God of the Old Testament? (OP pg1, RichinChrist)

Besides what has been well said here already, remember Jesus left His place as God and became a servant, a carpenter, and a man, he did not come here as God or Judge, but Jesus has since returned to the place He had, so be warned...

'... How did God, at one point, be willing to torch his enemies, but then at a later point choose to love and save them? I find all of these kinds of inconsistencies in the life of Jesus...'

If Jesus were to put to death sinners, as the Law taught, He would have had to put everyone to death, that's the point: we are all sinners 'No one is worthy'. Jesus advocated the penalty, that is He said stone her: put the adulterer to death, but his consentment condemned everyone there as all are adulterers worthy of death. There is no change in the Law, the Judgment simply now fell on 'everyone', and The Judgment is coming. Also, Jesus was not even acting as priest, judge or religious leader at this point. So Jesus did not have authority to execute anyone anyways, this was a duty reserved for those given the duties of such, generally after a trial. To wonder why Jesus didn't stone people is a really a ridiculous point to make about a carpenter.

It seems as though Jesus promoted being against what the Old Testament advocated. If that's the case, how can we say much of the Old Testament is portraying God "correctly"? (OP pg1, RichinChrist)

One thing I might add while Paidion is busy doing his gardening, is that Jesus did have a specific purpose: He was the actual substitute for their sins as He stood there in front of them and the adulterous woman. Jesus needn't bring the penalty on them, He was the going to take her punishment Himself, soon, and He knew it. And also the punishment of all who would accept His taking their place, that is. All Judgment has been postponed, as Steve said, for everyone, nothing has changed. Jesus incarnation was for a specific purpose, and yet He is THE LORD and LORD He does not change.

[TheEditor]

With all the underlining and font color, why has the answer to the "commandment" of God been missed from John's epistle? Why has the "punchline" been left out?

"He that says he is in the light and yet hates his brother is in the darkness up to right now.  He that loves his brother remains in the light, and there is no cause for stumbling in his case.  But he that hates his brother is in the darkness and is walking in the darkness, and he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded his eyes. . .
Little children, let us love, neither in word nor with the tongue, but in deed and truth.  By this we shall know that we originate with the truth. . .
Indeed, this is his commandment, that we have faith in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and be loving one another, just as he gave us commandment.
Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and gains the knowledge of God.  He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. . .
Beloved ones, if this is how God loved us, then we are ourselves under obligation to love one another.  At no time has anyone beheld God. If we continue loving one another, God remains in us and his love is made perfect in us. . .
God is love, and he that remains in love remains in union with God and God remains in union with him.  This is how love has been made perfect with us, that we may have freeness of speech in the day of judgment, because, just as that one is, so are we ourselves in this world.  There is no fear in love, but perfect love throws fear outside, because fear exercises a restraint. Indeed, he that is under fear has not been made perfect in love.  As for us, we love, because he first loved us. If anyone makes the statement: “I love God,” and yet is hating his brother, he is a liar. For he who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot be loving God, whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from him, that the one who loves God should be loving his brother also. (1 John 2:9-11; 3:18-19, 23; 4:7-8, 11,12,16-19-21)

How this can be missed but allusions judgment and trinity still finds its way in, I'll never know.

Regards, Brenden.

[jriccitelli]

I seems I should underline the whole Bible, as so much seems to get missed. With all your verses, how come you didn't quote verse 2:5 from my post? '... in him the love of God has truly been perfected...'

The LOVE of God is demonstrated and understood by His sacrifice, and not known perfectly apart from His sacrifice for us.

It is this sacrificial love God demonstrated to us that motivates us, not motivated by a commandment, but love that motivates us to be like Him and obey His Commandments. I think I have wrote extensively and exhaustively on this, how did you miss it?

True, it is not about a doctrine as in the trinity, and it is not about knowing love, it is about knowing THE LORD: 'By this we know that we have come to know Him' If you don't know who He is, then you don't know Him. 'If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth' (1John 1:6) Who is John speaking of here, God or Jesus?

Speaking of light, who is the light then, of whom you are walking in? 'God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all' (1John 1:5) also: 'There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him' (John 1:9-10) Who then is the true Light, God or Jesus?

Note also '... in him the love of God has truly been perfected...' How could God show His love, by having a different person than Himself show, fulfill or perfect it? The person showing or demonstrating LOVE has to be the person doing it themselves, wouldn't you think? Unless of course you believe otherwise...

[Paidion]

It's a ministry of condemnation and our deeds that are not based in a free gift of grace.

The purpose of the free gift of grace is to enable us to LIVE RIGHTEOUSLY, not to get us right with God. It is the DOING of righteousness that gets us right with God.

For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all people, training us to renounce impiety and worldly passions, and to live sensible, righteous, and devout lives in the present age, expecting the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of the great God and of our Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good works. Declare these things; encourage and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you. (Titus 2:11-15)

The salvation to which Paul refers, is salvation from SIN, not salvation from hell.

The angel said to Joseph:
She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their SINS.(Matthew 1:21)

Paul indicates in the following passage, that whether we attain eternal life or receive affliction and anguish, will depend upon whether we persevere in righteousness or live the self-life:

For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well‑doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give lasting life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

Affliction and anguish for every person who does evil ... but glory and honour and well-being for every one who does good ... For God shows no partiality. (Romans 2:6-11)

When Paul said, ""if it is by grace is no longer by works," he was talking about Jewish people who thought living righteously was tantamount to fulfilling the demands of the Mosaic law. They rested their whole hope in the law.

In fact, Paul specifies "works of the law" six times in Romans and Galatians:

Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Galatians 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—
Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

Homer, what will solidify grace in our hearts, I believe, is the understanding that God literally asks us to do the impossible.

Dizerner, God NEVER asks us to do the impossible! A good father never asks his children to do the impossible. That would be grossly unfair.

Jesus asked His disciples to obey HIS law, as He gave it as recorded in Matt 5, 6, and 7. He didn't ask the impossible. He EXPECTED His disciples to obey. After giving His law, he ended with this word of advice:

“Everyone then who hears these words of mine and DOES them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. And everyone who hears these words of mine and DOES NOT DO them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.” (Matt 7:24-27)

[TheEditor]

Hi JR,

To quote someone you likely admire, in the words of Reagan, "There you go again". John's admonishment was as clear as the rather large nose adorning my face. How you can turn this into yet another quick "rah rah sis boom bah" for the trinity is beyond my capacity to understand. The epistle speaks for itself. Asking me a "Who is being referred to here" type of question in order to find more trinitarian points, does about as much good as an Arian using the same kind of questioning to prove his Arianism. John's epistle merely admonishes us to not be hypocrites and say we love God while hating our brother. In fact, he says we are liars if we make such a claim. I'm not sure what the dilemma here is?

I didn't quote the verse you asked about because you didn't underline it. My point was what the "commandments" of Christ are. There was a bit of back and forth on the previous page on the commands. I thought it germane to the discussion, and since you quoted extensively from 1 John, I thought it might be good to get the theme clear in mind.

Regards, Brenden.

[dizerner]

I agree with David Lipscomb who long ago stated that he had heard enough about the necessity of doing your best. Lipscomb said no one did their best except Jesus. And Lipscomb, it is said, just retained a minimal amount to live on and gave everything else to the poor. But I still do not quite understand you. Are you saying that it takes no effort on our part to follow Jesus? Paul certainly spoke of effort. I know myself that there are times when I know to do good but my flesh "drags its feet" and by an act of will I do the right thing because Jesus said to. And that is agape, I believe.

I guess in a way I'm saying more clearly what most Christians really believe but don't always clearly state—and that is, that the power of the Holy Spirit, the grace of Christ, is what empowers us to do the right thing. However, I think sometimes we lose sight of how much and important of a role grace should play in our life—we should depend on Christ for everything. Again I doubt many Christians would on the surface disagree with that. I'm not talking about so-called irresistible grace, where our will is overpowered, because I believe we have to choose grace. But what I see happen so many times is we start to take a little of the credit for our sanctification, or we get under a bondage of loveless duty and obligation. So often I hear as an objection to grace, "Well you're not saying we don't do the right things are you?" But like the Sermon on the Mount I'm saying our invisible and underlying motivations are more important than the visible actions we see. Someone can look very altruistic but not be trusting Christ—someone can look very selfish but be completely trusting Christ. After all if I give everything I have to the poor and give my body to burned, is that what Scripture describes as righteousness? Or rather having the right attitudes and dispositions underneath all of that seemingly good moralism and altruism, which right attitudes Job lacked even though his life was stellar and exemplary in the area of morality. How does the verse end—"but have not love, it profits me nothing." But you get a good works religionist defining "giving your body to be burned" and "giving all you have to the poor" as the definition of love itself. How then can you do those things "but have not love." I contend that the only Love we can have and find is the Love Christ displayed on the Cross, the blood that poured from his veins to cleanse our sin and the Spirit that poured from his heart to give us life. And on that judgment day, many, many, many good works will be completely burned up into ashes, because they had not the Love of Christ, they were not purely motivated by his Spirit alone, and those works will profit many people nothing. But the widow's mite, Homer, that little thing everyone overlooked as not good for anything, not really any real sacrifice, that widow's mite will be what is honored by God, because that mite was inspired by the work of the Spirit of God in the heart, and not by an attempt to earn God's favor through good deeds. I think this subject is vitally and intensely important, because the good works that are supposed to be a work of grace, so easily and readily and often become a work of law. I know how hard it is to make this subject clear and I hope something of what I mean gets through.

[Homer]

Thanks Dizerner; I do not think we are far apart.

Paidion wrote:

In fact, Paul specifies "works of the law" six times in Romans and Galatians:

Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.
Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Galatians 3:2 Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith?
Galatians 3:5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith—
Galatians 3:10 For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed be everyone who does not abide by all things written in the Book of the Law, and do them.”

Jesus asked His disciples to obey HIS law, as He gave it as recorded in Matt 5, 6, and 7. He didn't ask the impossible. He EXPECTED His disciples to obey. After giving His law, he ended with this word of advice:

Paul made it unmistakably clear: we can not be justified by works of the law, Paul's use of the article clearly specifying the Law of Moses. But then can we be justified by keeping any law, including the Law of Christ?

[dizerner]

There's only one thing and one thing alone that justifies us, faith that Christ died and rose on our behalf.

[Paidion]

Paul made it unmistakably clear: we can not be justified by works of the law, Paul's use of the article clearly specifying the Law of Moses. But then can we be justified by keeping any law, including the Law of Christ?

Is there someone claiming that we can be made righteous by works of the law? You quoted the verses I quoted to indicate Paul referring to works of the law. Why? Just to make the point that we cannot be justified or made righteous by works of the law? Did you think I quoted these verses to prove that we could?

A couple of people here seem to have indicated that working righteousness is useless and unnecessary. They made reference to Paul's words "if it is by grace it is no longer by works,"" or "not of works" and such, as if good works were unnecessary. I tried to show that what Paul really meant was not works per se, but works of the law. That is why I specified the six instances in which Paul identified works of the law which he said were useless in becoming righteous or in attempting to be righteous in God's eyes. I also quoted Paul from Rom 2 in which he clearly showed that works of righteousness ARE necessary for lasting life (or eternal life if you insist). However, here it is again in case you missed it:

For he will render to everyone according to his works: to those who by perseverance in well‑doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, he will give lasting life; but for those who are self-seeking and are not persuaded by the truth, but are persuaded by wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

I fail to understand, in light of this passage, how anyone can insist that works of righteousness are unnecessary.