The Honest Atheist?

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seer
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The Honest Atheist?

Post by seer » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:20 am

Is there such a thing as an "honest atheist?" Of does scripture suggest that every man has enough proof of God through the witness creation or moral conscience?
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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Paidion
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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by Paidion » Mon Oct 28, 2013 12:08 pm

I am not sure about honest atheists, because an atheist has absolute certainty that God does not exist.

However, I do believe that there are honest agnostics. I think Bertrand Russell was one of them. I have read his debate with Father F.C. Copleston, and I saw him interviewed on television when he was in his 90s. He was asked about his degree of certainty concerning his view that the Christian God does not exist. He said he was about 99% certain. The interviewer then asked, "Then you allow that it is possible that He does in fact exist." Russell responded, "Yes, I do. I think the probability of His existence may be about equal to that of the existence of Hercules or Zeus or any of the other gods in which people believe or have believed."

If you are interested, the Russell/Copleson debate can be read here:

http://www.ditext.com/russell/debate.html
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by seer » Mon Oct 28, 2013 1:00 pm

Paidion wrote:I am not sure about honest atheists, because an atheist has absolute certainty that God does not exist.

However, I do believe that there are honest agnostics. I think Bertrand Russell was one of them. I have read his debate with Father F.C. Copleston, and I saw him interviewed on television when he was in his 90s. He was asked about his degree of certainty concerning his view that the Christian God does not exist. He said he was about 99% certain. The interviewer then asked, "Then you allow that it is possible that He does in fact exist." Russell responded, "Yes, I do. I think the probability of His existence may be about equal to that of the existence of Hercules or Zeus or any of the other gods in which people believe or have believed."

If you are interested, the Russell/Copleson debate can be read here:

http://www.ditext.com/russell/debate.html
I think it was Russell that was asked what he would say to God if he met Him after death - his answers was "not enough evidence God, not enough evidence." But if there can be honest "agnostics" then they would have legitimate reasons for not believing. Unbelief would not be a sin.
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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Paidion
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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by Paidion » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:00 pm

I am not sure that unbelief is a sin in anyone. Sin is basically self-service rather than genuine love and service to others.
Doubts are the messengers of the Living One to the honest.  They are the first knock at our door of things that are not yet, but have to be, understood. . . . Doubts must precede every deeper assurance; for uncertainties are what we first see when we look into a region hitherto unknown, unexplored, unannexed. —George MacDonald
In the New Testament, to "believe in Christ" is neither a belief in His existence nor a belief about Him. Though the Greek word "πιστευω" sometimes means "believe" in the current sense, it also frequently means "entrust" as in "to entrust oneself to". For example:

But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people. (Joh 2:24 ESV)

The Greek word translated here as "entrust" is none other than "πιστευω".

So to "believe in Christ" is to entrust oneself to Him. Sometimes it takes a lot of doubt and unbelief before a person comes to the point of doing that.
Paidion

Man judges a person by his past deeds, and administers penalties for his wrongdoing. God judges a person by his present character, and disciplines him that he may become righteous.

Avatar shows me at 75 years old. I am now 83.

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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by seer » Mon Oct 28, 2013 4:15 pm

Paidion wrote:I am not sure that unbelief is a sin in anyone. Sin is basically self-service rather than genuine love and service to others.
Doubts are the messengers of the Living One to the honest.  They are the first knock at our door of things that are not yet, but have to be, understood. . . . Doubts must precede every deeper assurance; for uncertainties are what we first see when we look into a region hitherto unknown, unexplored, unannexed. —George MacDonald
In the New Testament, to "believe in Christ" is neither a belief in His existence nor a belief about Him. Though the Greek word "πιστευω" sometimes means "believe" in the current sense, it also frequently means "entrust" as in "to entrust oneself to". For example:

But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people. (Joh 2:24 ESV)

The Greek word translated here as "entrust" is none other than "πιστευω".

So to "believe in Christ" is to entrust oneself to Him. Sometimes it takes a lot of doubt and unbelief before a person comes to the point of doing that.
Ok, so the agnostic has an excuse for not seeking God?
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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jarrod
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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by jarrod » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:02 pm

I do not see why unbelief or deception is incompatible with honesty. An atheist can be honest in his assertion of belief that there is no God based on whatever reasoning that led him to that point.

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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by steve7150 » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:57 pm

I do not see why unbelief or deception is incompatible with honesty. An atheist can be honest in his assertion of belief that there is no God based on whatever reasoning that led him to that point.






Speaking of deception is it not the devil who blinds the minds of unbelievers?

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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by seer » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:50 am

jarrod wrote:I do not see why unbelief or deception is incompatible with honesty. An atheist can be honest in his assertion of belief that there is no God based on whatever reasoning that led him to that point.
So in that case is the man morally culpable for his unbelief?
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by seer » Tue Oct 29, 2013 6:51 am

steve7150 wrote:I do not see why unbelief or deception is incompatible with honesty. An atheist can be honest in his assertion of belief that there is no God based on whatever reasoning that led him to that point.


Speaking of deception is it not the devil who blinds the minds of unbelievers?
So it is not the man's fault but the devils?
Thanks to the human heart by which we live, thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears, To me the meanest flower that blows can give thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears. Wordsworth

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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by steve7150 » Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:08 am

So it is not the man's fault but the devils?










There are other verses that tell us to resist the devil and he will flee also do not give him a foothold so it seems if you don't actively resist him he will influence you
and even blind your mind.
Obviously man is accountable but on the other hand this scenario doesn't sound like blanket free will.

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