The Honest Atheist?

Micah
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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by Micah » Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:24 am

seer wrote:Is there such a thing as an "honest atheist?" Of does scripture suggest that every man has enough proof of God through the witness creation or moral conscience?
This is a question I have considered recently. Is it actually possible for someone to be completely convinced that God doesn't exist? I believe the answer is a resounding yes, though not in contradiction to scripture. Allow me to explain how I got to this conclusion.

We know that the scripture talks about the evidence for God being made plain to us here on earth so that we are without excuse. (Romans 1) However, does this mean we couldn't be deceived into thinking God didn't exist? I don't believe so. In other words, I believe that it is very possible for someone to be deceived into thinking they know for certain that God doesn't exist.

How might this happen? Well, all sins are related, and, in a sense, at the heart of every sin is a lie. For example, if I was to be disrespectful and talk back to my parents, it would be because I bought the lie that God isn't in control and that he didn't keep my parents in authority over me for a good reason. If I was to, say, steal some food from a store, it might be because I bought the lie that God won't provide all my needs. Does this mean that I really don't believe God is in control, or that he can provide my needs? Not necessarily. I may believe these things in an ultimate sense, but temporarily I deceived myself and bought into a lie, rather than believed God and his word.

Another example might be that of a magician. People know that coins don't just disappear into thin air. However, a magician with really good slight of hand might perhaps convince, or persuade someone into thinking that making a coin disappear might actually be a possibility. These are rough examples, but I believe you can see the point I'm trying to make. Namely, that we can be deceived into believing a lie, even when "deep down" we know the truth.

I believe this is precisely the case with Atheists. The truth about God is plain to them because God has made it plain to them. However, there are some very clever lies out there which cause people to deny what they know for certain, and buy into a lie. Our job as followers of Christ is to use God's word to cut through the lies and reveal to these Atheists that they actually do know that God exists.

I hope that answers the question! :)

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jaydam
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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by jaydam » Thu Jan 09, 2014 12:44 pm

It seems to me that if there is enough natural evidence to point to God, and that man can be condemned based on this amount of evidence, then the natural thought process of the mind is incapable of coming to a complete certainty there is not God. Complete certainty must come from a progressive continuation of a refusal to acknowledge what natural evidence point to and/or the result of a spiritual blinding. Either way, it takes unnatural forced will or supernatural influence to blind somebody to a natural truth.

Additionally, perhaps it is not disbelief that is not a sin, but action based upon the degree of doubt. I do not believe I am sinning or condemned if a shred of doubt enters my mind or always exists in my mind regarding the existence of God. In my life, it is then by faith that I continue along in my belief in God when a doubtful thought enters my mind. It amazes me that doubt can still enter my mind after I have directly heard the voice of God, and I have seen miracles, but it happens on occasion.

Considering the above, it is the atheist who perhaps raises his doubt to certainty, and it is the agnostic who allows his doubt in either direction to prevent him from making a decisive choice. I would consider that both of these people would then be missing the required ingredient to receive the covering of Christ's blood for the sins they have committed, regardless of if one feels they are committing a sin directly in their lack of belief in God.

Surely one would have to at least concede that the atheist is closer to committing a sin in his proclamation that God does not exist, compared to the agnostic who exists only in perpetual uncertainty of what god may exist.

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seer
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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by seer » Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:17 pm

jaydam wrote:It seems to me that if there is enough natural evidence to point to God, and that man can be condemned based on this amount of evidence, then the natural thought process of the mind is incapable of coming to a complete certainty there is not God. Complete certainty must come from a progressive continuation of a refusal to acknowledge what natural evidence point to and/or the result of a spiritual blinding. Either way, it takes unnatural forced will or supernatural influence to blind somebody to a natural truth.

Additionally, perhaps it is not disbelief that is not a sin, but action based upon the degree of doubt. I do not believe I am sinning or condemned if a shred of doubt enters my mind or always exists in my mind regarding the existence of God. In my life, it is then by faith that I continue along in my belief in God when a doubtful thought enters my mind. It amazes me that doubt can still enter my mind after I have directly heard the voice of God, and I have seen miracles, but it happens on occasion.

Considering the above, it is the atheist who perhaps raises his doubt to certainty, and it is the agnostic who allows his doubt in either direction to prevent him from making a decisive choice. I would consider that both of these people would then be missing the required ingredient to receive the covering of Christ's blood for the sins they have committed, regardless of if one feels they are committing a sin directly in their lack of belief in God.

Surely one would have to at least concede that the atheist is closer to committing a sin in his proclamation that God does not exist, compared to the agnostic who exists only in perpetual uncertainty of what god may exist.
Good points jay...
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Paidion
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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by Paidion » Sun Jan 12, 2014 9:03 pm

The question being discussed here is not:
1. Whether or not the atheist or agnostic has an excuse for not seeking God.
2. Whether or not the atheist or agnostic is morally culpable for his unbelief.
3. Whether or not the atheist or agnostic is at fault for his unbelief or whether the devil is at fault.
4. Whether or not the atheist or agnostic is sinning by holding to his unbelief.

Rather the question is whether or not there can be an atheist can be HONEST in his disbelief, or an agnostic can be HONEST in his unbelief.

I think each of them can be just as HONEST as the theist who honestly believes in God's existence.

However, if "atheist" is defined as a person who believes no God exists, then he holds a position which is impossible to prove.
Even the theist cannot logically prove God's existence.

The agnostic doesn't believe that God exists; nor does he believe that God does not exist.
Since the agnostic is not claiming to have a belief, surely he can be honest in this lack of belief.
The agnostic has nothing to prove.
Paidion

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Micah
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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by Micah » Wed Jan 15, 2014 12:09 am

Paidion wrote:The question being discussed here is not:
1. Whether or not the atheist or agnostic has an excuse for not seeking God.
2. Whether or not the atheist or agnostic is morally culpable for his unbelief.
3. Whether or not the atheist or agnostic is at fault for his unbelief or whether the devil is at fault.
4. Whether or not the atheist or agnostic is sinning by holding to his unbelief.

Rather the question is whether or not there can be an atheist can be HONEST in his disbelief, or an agnostic can be HONEST in his unbelief.

I think each of them can be just as HONEST as the theist who honestly believes in God's existence.

However, if "atheist" is defined as a person who believes no God exists, then he holds a position which is impossible to prove.
Even the theist cannot logically prove God's existence.

The agnostic doesn't believe that God exists; nor does he believe that God does not exist.
Since the agnostic is not claiming to have a belief, surely he can be honest in this lack of belief.
The agnostic has nothing to prove.
I agree with you, Paidion. I think the problem most people have with the idea that an Atheist and/or agnostic can be an honest one is found in Romans 1:18-21, "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened."

According to these verses, everyone knows of God's existence because it says, "Although they knew God..." Many people make the jump from here that all Atheists and Agnostics really do know that God exists and just don't admit it. However, that conclusion can't be made quite so hastily. Backing up to verse 18 we see that it says, "who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth." That's why I said what I did in my above post.

I think it ultimately comes down to these Atheists and Agnostics knowing that God exists, but suppressing the truth in unrighteousness and convincing themselves that it is reasonable to believe God does not exist. In other words, they know God exists, but it's hidden by the veil of deception which they've placed on their own head.

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morbo3000
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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by morbo3000 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:13 am

Today in class (I'm a substitute teacher, today at a high school) a student came up to me after a brief presentation on MLK and said "There is still discrimination in this country. Do you know that it is illegal in 6 southern states for an atheist to hold office?" I thought he was being ridiculous, believing some thing on the internet. So I consulted the book of knowledge (google) and sure enough, it's on the books. But they also made the point, and I said it to him, that it's the Bible belt. An atheist wouldn't be elected in the first place, regardless of the law.

This kid went on and on and on and on.. he's a sophomore. On, and on and on.. I eventually asked "are you an atheist?" Yes. On and on and on. "I've read the bible front-and-back many times.. the Koran.. as an 7th grader, I decided I was agnostic, and then in 8th grade, I decided that there is no god."

The thing that struck me about this is that the kid was obviously talking to here his own voice. Or perhaps he was throwing meat out to see if I'd bite. But he wasn't asking questions. So I said "Good for you." I didn't know what he was after, but it certainly wasn't a conversation. So.. "Good for you."

The hubris of a 16 year old to think that he has exhausted the knowledge of the universe to the degree that he can attest that there is no god. It's hubris in the first place for an 80 year old too, imo.

Anyway... I thought it was an interesting story.. maybe something interesting to others.
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Micah
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Re: The Honest Atheist?

Post by Micah » Fri Jan 24, 2014 4:56 pm

morbo3000 wrote:Today in class (I'm a substitute teacher, today at a high school) a student came up to me after a brief presentation on MLK and said "There is still discrimination in this country. Do you know that it is illegal in 6 southern states for an atheist to hold office?" I thought he was being ridiculous, believing some thing on the internet. So I consulted the book of knowledge (google) and sure enough, it's on the books. But they also made the point, and I said it to him, that it's the Bible belt. An atheist wouldn't be elected in the first place, regardless of the law.

This kid went on and on and on and on.. he's a sophomore. On, and on and on.. I eventually asked "are you an atheist?" Yes. On and on and on. "I've read the bible front-and-back many times.. the Koran.. as an 7th grader, I decided I was agnostic, and then in 8th grade, I decided that there is no god."

The thing that struck me about this is that the kid was obviously talking to here his own voice. Or perhaps he was throwing meat out to see if I'd bite. But he wasn't asking questions. So I said "Good for you." I didn't know what he was after, but it certainly wasn't a conversation. So.. "Good for you."

The hubris of a 16 year old to think that he has exhausted the knowledge of the universe to the degree that he can attest that there is no god. It's hubris in the first place for an 80 year old too, imo.

Anyway... I thought it was an interesting story.. maybe something interesting to others.
As a senior in high school, myself, I can certainly relate to this story. It seems as if every month or so another former friend of mine has decided that there is no God. The interesting thing about making such a claim is that in order to claim there is no God, one must have infinite knowledge. And we have, as you said, 16 year olds claiming such things. I suppose it's another example of how the Devil weaves his webs of deception. I dread to think what life will be like when my generation has made it to adulthood.

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