Knowing who speaks the truth of God - NT?

[Barnsweb]

Some time back I was lead to do a web site on the teachings of Jesus. For about two years I studied nothing but what He taught, considered the things He said that were key commandments and precepts, and arrived at the conclusion that what we today call 'Christianity' is actually discipleship to Him and whatever He taught. First of record is His sermon on the mount where key foundational teachings are made explicit, that concludes with the admonition to be both hearers and doers of His word and never just be a 'hearer only.' A less known prophecy in the OT speaks to His teachings in the genealogy of Genesis 5 (Man is appointed mortal sorrow. The blessed God shall come down teaching. His death shall bring the despairing comfort, rest.) that also tells of the primacy of His teachings of all the Scriptural record, as does the testimony of John the Baptist in John 3, that the words of Jesus alone come directly from heaven itself. In fact, the great commission of Matthew ends on the direction to teach the immersed disciples to keep the same commandments that Jesus had first taught the, and per John 14-17, the Holy Spirit would enable them to recall all He had taught them (the twelve).

That Jesus taught the Law as enduring though heaven and earth pass away and extant until all things prophesied be fulfilled, it greatly disturbs me that the NT is full of contradictory doctrines taught by Paul. There is no upright way to justify what Paul taught and still actually believe what Jesus taught - one has to:

1. Fail to obey the commands of God in Deu. 4, 12, 13 and 18, disregard the truth of Jesus' words in Revelation (2), and nullify the good that God requires of man.
2. Believe Jesus didn't teach the actual truth - and that following ones own heart/mind is what matters (such as fornication being a sin against ones own self,and not against the commandments of God or HIs Annointed One.

Over and over Paul shows himself to be the Balaam of Revelation.

Has anyone else noted the heresies of Paul?

[steve7150]

Has anyone else noted the heresies of Paul?

Barnsweb

Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2013 5:54 am




The only issue i'm aware of is that sometimes believers think Paul taught "faith alone" without any connection to good works but if you read everything Paul taught it becomes evident Paul did believe in an active faith that bore fruit.
What verses are you concerned with?

[steve]

Hi Barnsweb,

In finding a conflict between Jesus and Paul, I think you must be misunderstanding either the teachings of Jesus or the teachings of Paul—or possibly both. They do not disagree. Please see my response to the last time you raised this issue. You said you would look up the scriptures I presented, but you have posted no response to date.

http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f= ... 459#p59459

[Barnsweb]

Yes, you did reply to my 'introduction'. I was going to continue on this link in 'general discussion' for the Bible, as it fit the topic more than an introduction statement. If it's OK with you, can we discuss it here on this thread?

Related to having attributed Paul as teaching according to what the rest of Scripture or the NT records as the teachings of Jesus Christ, this is a subject of extreme importance for Christians/disciples. The truth of God is too important to not seek His will in all things and be willing to wash ourselves of false concepts of man.

The chapters cited about God given direction/commandment to determine who speaks for Him and who doesn't is at the very core of essence of the faith that we are to earnestly contend for - as it was given once for all time - sort of a double check to see if what we've presumed to be true to be in accord with the directions given by God and His authorized spokespersons. What that may lead to, if errors are determined, is avoiding being ensnared by something not true that could cause us to be lead from careful faithfulness to God. This is why the several chapters of text were noted, as background on the matter: Deu. 4, 12, 13, 18, and the passage of Isaiah that says 'If they speak not according to the Law and Testimony, there is no light in them.

I believe it can be shown that Paul was the NT Balaam and that he started out right and went very wrong - and we need to prove the matters one way or another - according to what God said - not what Paul claimed.

Since you gave such a thorough listing on your first reply, I'll go back and see if that could be a starting point/reference point.

[Barnsweb]

1. Saying the commandments are death to us and the Spirit is life. God said the Spirit would be sent to write His directions to us upon our hearts that we be drawn from the heart to keep them - not count them as death - not to discount them in any way. So how is it Paul seems to say in one of his letters that the Law was nailed to the cross - Jesus directly said not to think He came to destroy or loosen the commandments of God or the prophets.

I’m sure that Paul agreed that Jesus did not come to destroy the law and the prophets. Like Jesus, Paul believed that Jesus came to fulfill them. Like Peter (1 Peter 1:10-12) Paul affirmed that the law and the prophets tended to be misunderstood by the Jews (2 Cor.3:14-16) before the Spirit was given (which Jesus said would result in the disciples being led into all truth). Jesus seemed to think similarly about the blindness of the Jews (e.g., Matt.13:15; 15:14).

Paul’s statements contrasting “the Spirit” and “the Letter” (the latter equated with the Jewish law code) seem completely in agreement with Jesus’ words to the woman at the well. She wanted to know what the law required with reference to ritual worship (location, etc.). Jesus said that true worshipers will not be concerned about such ritual matters (“neither in this mountain nor Jerusalem”). He said God seeks people to worship Him “in Spirit and in Truth.” I believe that Paul’s words are right on the same page.

Well, I'm not so sure as you are, and base my comment of what he is recorded to have taught others. First, Paul was of the sect of the Jews who were most blinded and considered what they commanded to be above the commandments of God. In my opinion it seems Paul repeats the error into Christianity from Judaism, from one extreme to another, with little pause at the real truth that existed between that was explicitly taught by the Master. Just a comment on the first discussion link - the poster didn't grasp what DelTondo wrote at all - if he read the book, it was with no care to check references provided or grasping the points he was making. So little was grasped that it had no interest for me but to listen to a sea shell.

Paul surely taught that the Law was nailed to the cross and no longer valid. Does Romans 7 say Jews are released from the Law? If Jesus is true, Romans 7 is one of the most blasphemous heresies ever foisted by any man. I've done a lot of careful study of the teachings of Jesus through the years, and He never ever said any such thing as Paul was saying in Romans 7 - and lest Romans 7 be found alone to be at variance with the Master, you surely know that this is what the gospel of Paul was - replacing the words from God to supplant them with what we as individuals deduce we are able to do in good conscience - which is spoken of by God as a great error for each to do what they find right in their own mind. God said the Spirit would write Torah on the heart so we would be careful to do what He said from our heart - not that the Spirit would lead us to reject HIs Torah (instructions in righteousness). Is it not a fact that everything Jesus taught about can be traced directly to the Torah (Law) and Prophets and Psalms? Deltondo notes Paul at odds with all three, as well as the Master. Romans 7 is not alone in Paul's false testimony.

[Barnsweb]

Ezekiel 36: 25-27;
'Then I will sprinkle clean water on you and you shall be clean, I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statues, and you will keep My judgments and do them.'

God sent His Spirit to enable keeping His word from our hearts, just as Jeremiah 31 says, 'I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their harts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.' The reason all will know Him at that time is they are disciples of the Master - the Messiah. Acts 2:38,39 shows when God poured out His Spirit on those who believed and repented to do the will of God. This was closely followed by Peter quoting Moses to say we are to hear whatever that Prophet tells us or we will be cut off from the brethren. All Jesus Christ taught - not Paul. So if Paul is ever at odds with the teachings of Moses, Jesus, or any of the twelve apostles - Paul must be rejected. If not so - please to point out the truth as given by God.

[MMathis]

Caution: Anyone wishing to post here should go back to Steve's response to the first post.

http://theos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=59455#p59455

[Homer]

Barnsweb,

The Law was given to the Jews. How would you establish that gentiles are under the law now, or have ever been under the law? Can you show even one instance from scriptures where they were accused of not keeping The Law?

[steve7150]

1. Saying the commandments are death to us and the Spirit is life. God said the Spirit would be sent to write His directions to us upon our hearts that we be drawn from the heart to keep them - not count them as death









I believe when Paul references the Law of Moses in a negative way he is referring to the ritual laws as opposed to the moral type of law which is eternal. Certainly you agree that the ritual/ceremonial laws have been fulfilled?

[Barnsweb]

Barnsweb,

The Law was given to the Jews. How would you establish that gentiles are under the law now, or have ever been under the law? Can you show even one instance from scriptures where they were accused of not keeping The Law?

Yes, and as was noted in the Jerusalem Decree, the Gentiles were not bound but to keep the Torah given for the 'sojourners' in Israel. However, according to Jesus, they were to make disciples of Him of all the nations and teach them to keep the same things He had commanded them first. Note the teachings of Jesus are all based directly from the Torah, Prophets and Psalms - each and every one. So Gentiles are commanded by Jesus to also keep whatever He first commanded the chosen disciples - which is why Luke recorded the gospel and was careful to get testimonies of those specific matters - the teachings of Jesus Christ - so they could be confident in the things which they were being instructed about - the commandments, precepts, judgments, prophecy and promises of Jesus Christ. I'm sure Luke did the very best he could to find these facts out, but I try to defer to the accounts of Matthew and John first because they are not just second hand remembrances, theirs are Holy Spirit inspired recall accounts as Jesus said they would be empowered to do.

So I have come to believe true doctrine to be the doctrine of God as taught by Jesus Christ, which is 100% in accord with the 'Law and the Testimony' that Isaiah and Moses knew and understand.

So, Gentiles are to be held to the sojourner laws and the explicit teachings of Jesus Christ. (Acts 3:22,23) If we do not abide in and teach the truth He taught, we risk being 'cut off from the brethren.' Did Moses, Peter and Jesus not know what they were talking about because they disagree with Paul!?