William Barclay on "kolasis" and "timoria"

[Paidion]

I looked up the passages. I didn't find any word that remotely resembled "κολασις" in Daniel 6:12(13). The other passages cited, all contained the word. I will discuss just one of these—Ezekiel 14:2-8. This is an English translation of the Septuagint passage where I have placed κολασις in the appropriate place.

And the word of the Lord came to me, saying, "Son of man, these men have conceived their devices in their hearts, and have set before their faces the κολασις of their iniquities: shall I indeed answer them? Therefore speak to them, and thou shalt say to them, 'Thus saith the Lord; any man of the house of Israel, who shall conceive his devices in his heart, and shall set the κολασις of his iniquity before his face , and shall come to the prophet; I the Lord will answer him according to the things in which his mind is entangled, that he should turn aside the house of Israel, according to their hearts that are estranged from me in their thoughts.' Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'Thus saith the Lord God, be converted, and turn from your evil practices, and from all your sins, and turn your faces back again. For any man of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, who shall separate himself from me, and conceive his imaginations in his heart, and set before his face the κολασις of his iniquity, and come to the prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him, according to the things wherein he is entangled. And I will set my face against that man, and will make him desolate and ruined, and will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord."

Notice that some form of "shall set the κολασις of his iniquity before his face" occurs three times in the passage. Notice also, that it is not the Lord who sets before their faces the κολασις of their iniquity, but the sinners themselves. First they conceived their wicked plans in their hearts. Then they "set before their faces the κολασις of their iniquities."

If the word "κολασις" means "penalty", then it would seem that each sinning individual or group of individuals was bringing about the penalty or personal consequences of their actions. That may be the meaning of "setting before their faces the κολασις of their iniquities."

On the other hand perhaps the thinking in the days of Jeremiah concerned with dealing with Israel as a whole, rather than with individuals. (In our culture we seem to stress individualism rather than corporate entities). By making these sinners desolate and ruined, and cutting them off from Israel, the Lord was taking steps to correct Israel as a whole. Thus "setting before their faces the κολασις of their iniquities" may have meant that these sinners were bringing about the correction of Israel as a whole. The desolation and ruin which was about to come to them, and their being cut off from the people would bring about this correction. For these consequences would have deterrent value for the rest of Israel.

[Roberto]

Hi Paidion,
Thanks for the reply. What do you think of this argument that he made:
One of his arguments:
"'In Classical Greek usage the noun kolasis describes punishment that may be to the benefit of the one being punished.5 However, a few centuries later the sense that such punishment is temporary and corrective is no longer dominant. For example, Josephus speaks about Herod’s experience of being on trial and in danger of being sentenced to death, but through the intervention of Hyrcanus, the high priest, he was saved “from that danger and punishment (kolaseōs),”6 certainly not a reference to a temporary kind of punishment."

I think this is a good point: how could captial punishment be corrective?

[Paidion]

Roberto, does he give the reference in Josephus?

[jriccitelli]

Paidion, I have only a minute, but isn’t pruning a tree abit violent, whether or not it is beneficial depends on which side of the loppers you are. On one side of my yard I have a trim tree, on the other side a pile of branches I am throwing out to be put in the chopper.

[Roberto]

Roberto, does he give the reference in Josephus?

Josephus, Antiquities XV,16

Paidion, have you thoroughly vetted this issue? I'm really just getting started. I just found another page of challenges. Want to help me go through them?

[Paidion]

Okay, I have not yet been able to find the passage. I have a physical copy of Josephus in English, and I can access the Greek online. Whiston's physical copy has a different way of referencing, and so does the online Greek copy. But eventually, I may be able to find the passage by searching the index of my English copy.

Until I do find the passage in Greek, I don't feel qualified to comment.

[Paidion]

I just found another page of challenges. Want to help me go through them?

I could try.

Most of these challenges seem to consist of finding some form of "kolasis" which can be interpreted in particular contexts as being non-corrective punishment. Whether or not that is the case must be determined by the context (if possible). Even if these contexts indicate genuine cases of non-corrective punishment, this does not negate the fact that the words "kolasis" and "timoria" were, at a previous time, contrasting nouns with respect to the former denoting correction, and the latter as either vengeance or penalty. If the two words did become somewhat synonymous, the fact remains that the NT writers were familiar with both words, and sometimes seem to have chosen the one rather than the other. Was their choice based on the classic connotations of the words? Or did they simply use them synonymously and randomly as we might with the English words "big" and "large"?

[Roberto]

I just found another page of challenges. Want to help me go through them?

I could try.

Most of these challenges seem to consist of finding some form of "kolasis" which can be interpreted in particular contexts as being non-corrective punishment. Whether or not that is the case must be determined by the context (if possible). Even if these contexts indicate genuine cases of non-corrective punishment, this does not negate the fact that the words "kolasis" and "timoria" were, at a previous time, contrasting nouns with respect to the former denoting correction, and the latter as either vengeance or penalty. If the two words did become somewhat synonymous, the fact remains that the NT writers were familiar with both words, and sometimes seem to have chosen the one rather than the other. Was their choice based on the classic connotations of the words? Or did they simply use them synonymously and randomly as we might with the English words "big" and "large"?

Do you think that it would be easy to present the evidence that they were used as contrasting types of punishment?

[Roberto]

Before I get started, Paidion, are you committed to this search for truth about these words? Sometimes we get so many threads going that things get thrown under the bus. We could do it over a longer time period if you would like, I just know that the thread you started is moving like molasses!

[Paidion]

No I cannot commit myself. Notwithstanding, I might be able to help a little if you care to post a few of these challenges.